The Next Mayor?

[vicupstate]

I agree with your assessment stjr...

It should have just been called the "Bitter Jacksonville Plan", since that's what it yielded. Nobody got what they wanted out of, despite all that wasted money. Well, except for some of the "Good ole' Boy" contractors like Auchter Co. And I guess W.W. sure made out like a bandit too, only to turn around last year and threaten to move to a new city, if his pot wasn't sweetened even further. *sigh* The city sure isn't any better off for all those billions gone, that I can see.

This place seems hell-bent on giving everything away to those who least deserve it.

If you can't see where the money has gone, then you haven't been looking. The Library, the baseball field, the coliseum, were all paid with BJP funds.  Sidewalks and roads have been created widened and repaired too.  A whole slew of branch library projects were completed as well.  Several of the Preservation Project purchases were paid in part with BJP funds, which were leveraged with other funds.   

It's true that cost overruns took out some improvements at least temporarily, but those were primarily road projects only.   

When Delaney was Mayor a detailed report was published every quarter on what had been completed and what was in the pipeline.   I believe those stopped after he left office. 

Someone mentioned the BJP was just a trick to funnel more money to the Jaguars.  If memory serves, not one penny of BJP funds has gone to the stadium.   The Shipyards deal was unfortunate, but it was not a part of the BJP either.  I still think the original developers should have been given the  chance to bring it to fruition.  There successors have been no more successful than they were.     

The BJP was a great plan and went a long way to bring Jax 'up to speed' with it's peer cities.  Unfortunately, the momentum from that has been allowed to disipate. 

My biggest regret with the bJP is that it was that the ones (Delaney. Mousa, et al) that staretd it, were not allowed to complete it due to 'term limits'.     

 

[vicupstate]

Tony Allegretti

He isnt in the running, and like either me or lake, doesnt have the experience.   Interesting choice though.

He has as much experience as the current mayor did when he ran. 

That said, I agree he shouldn't run for mayor -- yet.  An at-large city council seat would be just the ticket though.  In four year hence, he would have the experience. 

[ChriswUfGator]

If you can't see where the money has gone, then you haven't been looking. The Library, the baseball field, the coliseum, were all paid with BJP funds.  Sidewalks and roads have been created widened and repaired too.  A whole slew of branch library projects were completed as well.  Several of the Preservation Project purchases were paid in part with BJP funds, which were leveraged with other funds.   

It's true that cost overruns took out some improvements at least temporarily, but those were primarily road projects only.   

When Delaney was Mayor a detailed report was published every quarter on what had been completed and what was in the pipeline.   I believe those stopped after he left office. 

Someone mentioned the BJP was just a trick to funnel more money to the Jaguars.  If memory serves, not one penny of BJP funds has gone to the stadium.   The Shipyards deal was unfortunate, but it was not a part of the BJP either.  I still think the original developers should have been given the  chance to bring it to fruition.  There successors have been no more successful than they were.     

The BJP was a great plan and went a long way to bring Jax 'up to speed' with it's peer cities.  Unfortunately, the momentum from that has been allowed to disipate. 

My biggest regret with the bJP is that it was that the ones (Delaney. Mousa, et al) that staretd it, were not allowed to complete it due to 'term limits'.     

Oh come on...the new main library is about the ONLY thing out of that $2.2+ billion dollars worth of proposed projects that actually got done, besides for the Veterans' Arena, and those two projects only comprised about $230 million of the total amount. Everything else has been a disaster...

The road improvements, including the proposed new interchanges which I considered to be the MOST important part, were repeatedly delayed, pushed off, and most of them were ultimately canceled, with the money being funneled around to other things (including, IIRC, $34 million dollars that got diverted to stadium repairs for the Jaguars a few years back, and also to the ridiculous courthouse boondoggle under which a couple hundred million has already evaporated and we still don't have a courthouse!).

And aside from that, they dropped $30 million on an Equestrian Center and $50 million on public incentives for private developers at Cecil Commerce Center, all of which has been such a gigantic flop that the City keeps trying to give it back to the Navy. Except they don't want it either. So we just keep paying...

They spent $10 million on building an addition to the Jacksonville Zoo, called "Jacksonville: Range of the Jaguar", replete with live Jaguars and football tie-ins.

Seriously, what would you rather have. A zoo exhibit to promote a privately owned football team, or functional roadways? A ridiculously ostentatious $190 million dollar courthouse that, due to incompetence, is now a $400+ million dollar proposition? And that, when the old one works just fine? And I agree that the main library is nice, but so was the old one! And the old one was never busy, I'm still not understanding why we needed a new one. A $30 million dollar equestrian center that sits unused 90% of the time?

So yeah, I dunno, I do think some of these projects are unnecessary, especially in this economy, and yes, I think the money could have been much better spent. The arena was $130m and the library was $95m. The rest of it was pretty much wasted, compared to where it could have been spent. Or, in many cases (the courthouse), just wasted outright...

[Charles Hunter]

Without doing the research, I think the Weavers also contributed to the "Range of the Jaguar" exhibit.
Are you dismissing the several branch libraries also built with BJP? 
The "City keeps trying to give" Cecil back to the Navy?  Mayor FlipFlop brought this up - once - and lost a referendum on it. I don't see this fits "keeps trying" - that implies several attempts.  The costs of the overpasses were grossly underestimated, as were the costs of many of the roadway projects.  Assuming the Delaney administration had a "price point" in mind, if the projects were estimated correctly, there would have been fewer of them, which would have reduced the political attractiveness of having lots of projects all around town.

[ChriswUfGator]

Without doing the research, I think the Weavers also contributed to the "Range of the Jaguar" exhibit.
Are you dismissing the several branch libraries also built with BJP? 
The "City keeps trying to give" Cecil back to the Navy?  Mayor FlipFlop brought this up - once - and lost a referendum on it. I don't see this fits "keeps trying" - that implies several attempts.  The costs of the overpasses were grossly underestimated, as were the costs of many of the roadway projects.  Assuming the Delaney administration had a "price point" in mind, if the projects were estimated correctly, there would have been fewer of them, which would have reduced the political attractiveness of having lots of projects all around town.

The Weavers may have contributed, but that doesn't change the fact that the City's tab was $10mil out of the "Better" Jacksonville Plan, in addition to the substantial ongoing operating costs.

And mayor flip-flop (I like that name) has floated giving Cecil back to the Navy more than once. It's been a constant source of conversation since I moved here in 2000. They were actually going to bite once, but IIRC the typical geniuses who had all built houses right at the end of a runway started griping, and it killed it. But not for lack of trying on the part of the City, though...

As to scrapping the road projects and new interchanges, this is where we diverge. I'd personally rather have operational and functional roadways than a Taj Mahal of a Courthouse that we don't need in the first place, an equestrian center nobody uses, a vacant Commerce Park, and live Jaguars running around to promote our NFL team. Call me nuts...

[mtraininjax]

Delaney was the best Mayor we've had in decades, but he didn't do everything well. I never really liked the execution of the "Better" Jacksonville plan. Creating a huge and widely-publicized cash pool is just bound to draw everybody out of the woodwork to stick their fingers in the pie, and naturally, that's EXACTLY what happened. The fund got scavenged for other purposes, and half the projects still aren't done or even started. He also bears some responsibility for the courthouse mess.

Well Delaney (under his watch) did build the arena, baseball grounds and most of the library under Delaney. Peyton has only built mistrust and expanded government. How can his father run a fantastic company, and he can't run a government like a business? Courthouse would have been fine had we stayed the course and built the darn thing, instead of the mess we are in now.

Good lesson for everyone on Govt projects - City run projects, unless they have a defined begin and end date, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS drag on indefinately. There is no leadership in the City to hold people's butts to the fire.

[BridgeTroll]

For actual facts regarding the "Better Jacksonville Plan" here are some links... enjoy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Jacksonville_Plan

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Better+Jacksonville+Plan/default.htm

Environmental Clean-up of Ash Sites - $25 million
Neighborhood Park Improvements - $15 million
Preservation Project Jacksonville - $50 million The Preservation Project was a series of land grants for parks. In 2003, The Nature Conservancy awarded Mayor Delaney the President's Conservation Achievement Award for his work on the Preservation Project.
Septic Tank Remediation - $75 million
Jacksonville Equestrian Center & Cecil Recreation Complex - $25 million
Jacksonville Zoo: Range of the Jaguar - $10 million
Northwest Jacksonville Economic Development Fund - $25 million
Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena - $130 million
Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville - $34 million
New Main Library - $95 million
New Library Branches/Renovations - $55 million

[ChriswUfGator]

But you forgot to add that we supposed to get traffic flow improvements, and/or actual highway style interchanges at:

Butler Blvd./US-1 and Butler Blvd./I-95 Intersections
University/Beach Intersection
Salt Marsh (Fanning Island and FIND) Mitigation Sites
Beaver Street (Devoe to Edgewood)
Atlantic Boulevard (Girvin/Hodges/San Pablo)
Atlantic/Kernan Intersection
Atlantic/Southside Intersection

Where are those?

[ChriswUfGator]

For actual facts regarding the "Better Jacksonville Plan" here are some links... enjoy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Jacksonville_Plan

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Better+Jacksonville+Plan/default.htm

Environmental Clean-up of Ash Sites - $25 million
Neighborhood Park Improvements - $15 million (What happened to these?)
Preservation Project Jacksonville - $50 million
Septic Tank Remediation - $75 million (Private land should = Private money for septic tank removal.)
Jacksonville Equestrian Center & Cecil Recreation Complex - $25 million (Need I say more?)
Jacksonville Zoo: Range of the Jaguar - $10 million (Haha...told you so! Great use of tax dollars)
Northwest Jacksonville Economic Development Fund - $25 million (Don't get me started on the JEDC)
Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena - $130 million
Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville - $34 million
New Main Library - $95 million
New Library Branches/Renovations - $55 million

And you forgot to add the most important one: Our wonderful new courthouse! It's so pretty!

Oh wait, that's right, I'm dreaming and we don't have one. We've spent millions and it hasn't even been started yet, and will cost $400 million more to actually build it.

[ChriswUfGator]

Delaney was the best Mayor we've had in decades, but he didn't do everything well. I never really liked the execution of the "Better" Jacksonville plan. Creating a huge and widely-publicized cash pool is just bound to draw everybody out of the woodwork to stick their fingers in the pie, and naturally, that's EXACTLY what happened. The fund got scavenged for other purposes, and half the projects still aren't done or even started. He also bears some responsibility for the courthouse mess.

Well Delaney (under his watch) did build the arena, baseball grounds and most of the library under Delaney. Peyton has only built mistrust and expanded government. How can his father run a fantastic company, and he can't run a government like a business? Courthouse would have been fine had we stayed the course and built the darn thing, instead of the mess we are in now.

Good lesson for everyone on Govt projects - City run projects, unless they have a defined begin and end date, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS drag on indefinately. There is no leadership in the City to hold people's butts to the fire.

Right, everybody wants to point to the Veterans' Arena and the Library to say the BJP was a success.

Problem is, for every project that got done, there are 3 that didn't. And I'm talking important stuff too. And the thing was stuffed with pork. Again, I'd rather have functional roads than live Jaguars running around promoting an NFL team, paying for septic tank repairs on private property, and an equestrian center that nobody uses.

And while the new library is nice, for $100mil the only part of it that's any busier than the old one was is the first floor where the cafe etc. is. The old one was adequate. And they destroyed some great historic architecture to build it.

And yeah...then there's the courthouse...

[BridgeTroll]

The problem Chris is that you make conclusions that are not true...  The zoo improvement was a worthy project.  You seem to have a problem with jaguars... perhaps aardvarks would have been better?  Septic tank removal protects the river by removing pollution streams that turn the St Johns green.  People DO use the equestrian center... Do you only approve of things you use?  Cecil commerce is attracting businesses... most communities that have lost bases due to BRAC have had difficulty replacing and reusing those facilities.  The new library was desperately needed... The Hayden Burns was barely serviceable and the satellite branch refurbishments were also desperately needed.  A new courthouse is also needed.  Finally here I agree with you.  The new building has been a giant boondoggle from the outset... the design... the cost... the delays.

[BridgeTroll]

If you have not been to the zoo recently I highly recommend it...

http://www.jaxzoo.org/

http://www.jaxzoo.org/catering/RangeoftheJaguar.asp

I cannot find any connection at all to the Jacksonville Jaguars...

[ChriswUfGator]

The problem Chris is that you make conclusions that are not true... 

If I'm wrong, then where are all our great new interchanges with improved traffic flow?

How about our shiny new courthouse?

The plan allocated $100+ million for rapid transit. So where's is our great new commuter rail?

(And dropping $3m out of $100m collected on "BRT" doesn't count).

The zoo improvement was a worthy project.

No it wasn't.

It was an obvious promotional tie-in for a private enterprise, namely the Jaguars NFL team. And in case you hadn't noticed, Wayne Weaver was head of the board of directors of the Jacksonville Zoo at the time the Jaguar project was authorized...gee...wonder how that came to pass?

Pure Pork! If Weaver wanted it, he should have paid for it.

Septic tank removal protects the river by removing pollution streams that turn the St Johns green.

I know Brooks Busey and the Riverkeeper folks. You want to put money on how much of this St. Johns cleanup/remediation has actually been completed? None.

Well, none due to the $75m we spent for it anyway. The only half-azzed progress was they authorized some silly grant program that pays out like $2k per family for removing a septic tank, when installing a sewer line and removing the septic system costs $15k+/-, including the permits paid to the City (which themselves cost more than the grant). And there's so much red tape, I'd be truly surprised if anybody really bothered with it. What happened to the $75 million?

People DO use the equestrian center...

No they don't! It sits unused easily 80% of the time. Tell me the last time you heard of ANY event being advertised at the equestrian center. Two horse shows and one auction per year that maybe 200 people attend is NOT worth $25 million in public funds.

Do you only approve of things you use? 

No, that's just reducio ad absurdum. I never said that.

What I do think is, when it comes to public funds, money should be spent where and how it benefits the most people. So when the day arrives when we have a road system that isn't FUBAR, and we have a viable public transit system, and our river isn't polluted, then I probably wouldn't mind wasting $10m on a Zoo exhibit that promotes an NFL team.

It's all about priorities...

Cecil commerce is attracting businesses...

U kidding?

Yeah, they attract new businesses every so often, but at the same time they're losing the ones who were there at just as fast a rate (if not faster). They brought in LSI, and are losing Boeing. They brought in FedEx and lost Northrop Grumman. And I think they even lost FedEx now. The best thing they had going for them was the WalMart Distribution Center, and IIRC the City ran them off and they wound up building it in Putnam County.

Then there's FlightStar, the biggest employer over there, but they just moved over from JIA to Cecil to get cheaper land, so that didn't really bring any "new" benefit to the City. Same taxes, same revenue. It's a net "0".

Now they're pinning their hopes on this startup cargo-plane manufacturer, so we'll see how well that does in this economy, with DHL pulling out of the US market and UPS and FedEx cutting back.

The place has been a giant flop. EVEN THE CITY acknowledges it has wasted $180 million worth of BJP money, and can't make it work. They tried giving it back to the Navy, and when they didn't want it, now they're trying to give it away to private developers.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/01/12/daily4.html

This thing is a big ole' floppity flop...

The new library was desperately needed...

The old one was underutilized. I went often, and it was never crowded. I don't think the new one is worth knocking down historic architecture, leaving one more vacant building in downtown, and spending $100m on a replacement for something that wasn't fully utilized to begin with. The money should go to things that are over-utilized, or desperately needed. Like mass transit, roadway improvements, etc.

The Hayden Burns was barely serviceable and the satellite branch refurbishments were also desperately needed. 

It wasn't "barely serviceable" at all! They had just put a new roof on it, and while I agree they could have made the bathrooms nicer, that sure wouldn't have cost $100m. Did you ever go in there? It was pretty nice. Stunning example of 1950s/60s architecture by the way.

A new courthouse is also needed.

I'm at the courthouse a lot. It's busy, but handles the traffic well and has plenty of room. The only real justification for replacing it is to turn that extremely valuable waterfront property over for private development, and while I agree that's a positive move, I don't trust the way the City will handle it (no doubt just another giveaway like the Shipyards, and we'll wind up with nothing), and in any event that one goal is not worth $400+ million dollars.

Finally here I agree with you.  The new building has been a giant boondoggle from the outset... the design... the cost... the delays.

Yeah, and the architecture we lost is irreplaceable. They leveled what? 10 city blocks? For a building we arguably don't need, and which in any event may never be built. We'll never get those structures back. Just more vacant lots now...

[BridgeTroll]

Like I said... would you have prefered aardvarks?  It is a great display and is the Winner of the coveted AZA “Exhibit of the Year” award.
http://www.aza.org/HonorsAwards/index.html

Pork??  I along with most people do not think so...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar

You want to put money on how much of this St. Johns cleanup/remediation has actually been completed? None.

Really?  there must be actual facts somewhere??

No they don't! It sits unused easily 80% of the time.

Really?? Hmmmm.... I am sure you have never been out there...

As I said... there are thousands of empty bases around the country caused by BRAC.  All have had challenges.  Are you suggesting just letting the weeds take over?

[ChriswUfGator]

Like I said... would you have prefered aardvarks?

No, I would have preferred the money be spent in ways that reflect the needs of the community. I've already stated my position on this. When we have a road system that isn't FUBAR, a clean river, a viable public transportation system, and a downtown that isn't something out of a sci-fi movie, then I probably wouldn't mind spending $10 mil on a Zoo exhibit.

As I said before, it's about priorities.

Pork??  I along with most people do not think so...

Ya rite. Come on. Wayne Weaver heads the Zoo's board of directors, and gets the City to pay $10mil worth of BJP funds to build a Jaguar exhibit, and you don't consider that pork? You'd get along real well in Tallahassee...

Really?  there must be actual facts somewhere??

Why do I always have to do your googling for you?

There are thousands of articles on how polluted the Saint Johns is, and how little has been done to stop it. The City collected $75m under BJP to fund remediation projects, and to date the only thing to come out of it is a silly grant program. What's next, I say the sun rises in the east, and you're going to ask me for a link to that too?

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/120405/opl_20470332.shtml

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/conservation/news/story?page=b_con_pollution_StJohns_River_FL

http://www.stjohnsriverkeeper.org/ourWork_Media.asp

Really?? Hmmmm.... I am sure you have never been out there...

That was my whole point! There's never any reason to go there, because there's never anything going on.

If you really want to argue this one, then just look at their 2009 Calendar:

http://www.jaxevents.com/events/jec/calendar.pdf

There are a WHOPPING 15 events for ALL OF 2009!!!! ROFL. And out of those 15, a pile of them are private events where some group rented out the center and only 30 people are going to go. This is simply NOT an acceptable use of $30m worth of public funds, considering how many better places it could have been spent....

As I said... there are thousands of empty bases around the country caused by BRAC.  All have had challenges.

That doesn't mean the City has to jump in and buy it up, and waste $180m on failed initiatives, before throwing in the towel and then try and give their giant flop back to the Navy or private developers, does it?

I'm not getting the connection.

Are you suggesting just letting the weeds take over?

No, I'm suggesting that it should have been privately developed from the get-go, and left alone by the City. It was a gigantic waste of money.

Even the City has thrown in the towel on this one, and has been trying to give it away for years, this time to private developers. I'm not sure how you can keep arguing this one, when even COJ is running for the escape hatches.