Oral Explosion Coming to San Marco

[jason_contentdg]

Chris: Move to Riverside/Avondale.  You can go for weeks without having to drive out of the area.

As for the proposed building, it is complete garbage.  Aside from the fact that it meets the street well, it is a one story building replacing a one story building (i.e. no more density) and is incredibly ugly.  This style of "architecture" is unloved by the general populace and does not wear well.  The whole structure, if built, is destined for the Trail Ridge landfill within 20 years or less IMO.

Laughable.

[ChriswUfGator]

Will there be an Oral Explosion with Five Guys?

Hahahaha!!!! Best reply of the year so far IMO

Ya, that's a classic for sure.

[jason_contentdg]

I would think most of the blame for the majority of bad designs in Jacksonville should be shouldered by the developers, not the architects.

I'd like to see the actual materials of this building before I pass judgment, if its a stucco box, I'll be unamused. But if the framing wall is an interesting material, it could actually turn out well. 

Of course if you only like Mediterranean and clay tile roofs, or only pre-1930's architecture then I could see where you hate it.

[Steve]

I call B.S. on the inner city lack of mobility. To the extent that it exists, which isn't much, it's only applicable to those who can't afford cars, and because public transportation is really not a viable option here for holding down a job. Most inner-city types, in my experience with renting to them, work for minimum wage in call centers, which are all located off Baymeadows/Southside. So I 100% disagree with your assessment on that one.

I'd love for my wife to respond to this.  We are in the process of purchasing a house in riverside (under contract, mortgage approved, just waiting to close hopefully this month).  My wife works at Fidelity.  From our house, it's just outside of reasonable walking distance.  However, if there was a streetcar, she'd ride it in a heartbeat (so long as it was a reliable transit method).

I can assure you, she is not a minimum wage call center employee - she is part of management.

Another example - the success of the Riverside Trolley at lunchtime.  People use it quite a bit.  This shows that if there is reliable transit in the core what runs from where people are to where they want to go, people would use it.

[ChriswUfGator]

I call B.S. on the inner city lack of mobility. To the extent that it exists, which isn't much, it's only applicable to those who can't afford cars, and because public transportation is really not a viable option here for holding down a job. Most inner-city types, in my experience with renting to them, work for minimum wage in call centers, which are all located off Baymeadows/Southside. So I 100% disagree with your assessment on that one.

I'd love for my wife to respond to this.  We are in the process of purchasing a house in riverside (under contract, mortgage approved, just waiting to close hopefully this month).  My wife works at Fidelity.  From our house, it's just outside of reasonable walking distance.  However, if there was a streetcar, she'd ride it in a heartbeat (so long as it was a reliable transit method).

I can assure you, she is not a minimum wage call center employee - she is part of management.

Another example - the success of the Riverside Trolley at lunchtime.  People use it quite a bit.  This shows that if there is reliable transit in the core what runs from where people are to where they want to go, people would use it.

The phrase "inner-city" has a specific meaning, and does not refer to financial analysts or whatnot who live in Riverside. I'm not trying to start another Riverside/San Marco vs. Springfield war, so I'm going to leave it at that, but I think you might be a little confused as to the meaning of that term.

[Charleston native]

You can still have a walkable core and horrid sprawl.  Chicagoland is a great example.  While Downtown Charleston may be walkable, the neck, North Charleston and Mount Pleasant aren't.  The difference between Jax and Charleston is suburbs like North Charleston would be within our actual city limits.  Once we get over the fact that Jacksonville is really a city with suburbs all wrapped up in one, enhancing walkability in the old city isn't as hard as it seems.  The old city was once walkable, but a ton of buildings have been torn down and replaced with suburban structures and parking lots over the last 50 years.  If every development in the core had to be designed with the priniciples incorporated in this Oral Explosion project, the core would indeed eventually become walkable again.

Images of a walkable Jacksonville: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/783/120/

Very well said, lake. Outstanding post.

[Steve]

The phrase "inner-city" has a specific meaning, and does not refer to financial analysts or whatnot who live in Riverside. I'm not trying to start another Riverside/San Marco vs. Springfield war, so I'm going to leave it at that, but I think you might be a little confused as to the meaning of that term.

This is kind of my point - "inner city" DOES include these neighborhoods.  IMO, I think it basically includes all of the Old City Limits.  I believe that we have to make our inner city transit system work with all neighborhoods (from Riverside to San Marco to Springfield to Durkeeville to Brentwood and beyond).

I think one of the problems with Jacksonville as a whole (sorry for stretching the topic a bit).  Each neighborhood doesn't seem to work with the adjacent neighborhoods.  Downtown doesn't work with Springfield, Springfield doesn't work with Downtown.  Downtown doesn't work with Riverside.  San Marco doesn't work with Downtown.  Once we realize that we are one damn city, and that it all interweaves, we will be better off.  This is one of the reasons connectivity is SO important BETWEEN neighborhoods.

(Stepping off of Soapbox now)

[ChriswUfGator]

The phrase "inner-city" has a specific meaning, and does not refer to financial analysts or whatnot who live in Riverside. I'm not trying to start another Riverside/San Marco vs. Springfield war, so I'm going to leave it at that, but I think you might be a little confused as to the meaning of that term.

This is kind of my point - "inner city" DOES include these neighborhoods.  IMO, I think it basically includes all of the Old City Limits.  I believe that we have to make our inner city transit system work with all neighborhoods (from Riverside to San Marco to Springfield to Durkeeville to Brentwood and beyond).

I think one of the problems with Jacksonville as a whole (sorry for stretching the topic a bit).  Each neighborhood doesn't seem to work with the adjacent neighborhoods.  Downtown doesn't work with Springfield, Springfield doesn't work with Downtown.  Downtown doesn't work with Riverside.  San Marco doesn't work with Downtown.  Once we realize that we are one damn city, and that it all interweaves, we will be better off.  This is one of the reasons connectivity is SO important BETWEEN neighborhoods.

(Stepping off of Soapbox now)

The phrase "Inner City" does not apply to San Marco and Riverside, and carries additional meaning beyond that which you are discussing...

Straight from the dictionary:

n.
The usually older, central part of a city, especially when characterized by crowded neighborhoods in which low-income, often minority groups predominate.

innercity in'ner-cit'y (ĭn'ər-sĭ'tē) adj.

[Joe]

The phrase "inner-city" has a specific meaning, and does not refer to financial analysts or whatnot who live in Riverside. I'm not trying to start another Riverside/San Marco vs. Springfield war, so I'm going to leave it at that, but I think you might be a little confused as to the meaning of that term.

Perhaps you are the one who is confused? Riverside is certainly part of Jacksonville's inner-city. It's older and closer to the CBD than many of the Northside districts that are commonly called part of the inner-city too.

I certainly hope you aren't implying that "inner-city" means certain racial or economic classes of people. That tired old definition is an infuriating byproduct of sociology professors that somehow gained traction with the media.

edit: Obviously that is what you meant. Ugh. Using a geographic term to define someone's race or poverty is an abhorent and illogical practice. (i.e. "urban" to mean "black"). It might have traction in the media, but it has no place in an intelligent discussion of land use ... <rant over>

[ChriswUfGator]

The phrase "inner-city" has a specific meaning, and does not refer to financial analysts or whatnot who live in Riverside. I'm not trying to start another Riverside/San Marco vs. Springfield war, so I'm going to leave it at that, but I think you might be a little confused as to the meaning of that term.

Perhaps you are the one who is confused? Riverside is certainly part of Jacksonville's inner-city. It's older and closer to the CBD than many of the Northside districts that are commonly called part of the inner-city too.

I certainly hope you aren't implying that "inner-city" means certain racial or economic classes of people. That tired old definition is an infuriating byproduct of sociology professors that somehow gained traction with the media.

edit: Obviously that is what you meant. Ugh. Using a geographic term to define someone's race or poverty is an abhorent and illogical practice. (i.e. "urban" to mean "black"). It might have traction in the media, but it has no place in an intelligent discussion of land use ... <rant over>

Quit shooting the messenger. That's not me implying anything. It's the actual meaning of the phrase.

I guess you should probably call up Webster's and rant at them, if this really annoys you so badly...

In the meantime, taking the phrase at its actual meaning, it's clearly not referring to San Marco and Riverside. And no, after this little interchange, I'm now especially certain that I'm not the one who's confused.

[thelakelander]

What's the proper term for Riverside & San Marco?  What would you suggest Jacksonville do to improve the urban core that includes these places, as well as the neighborhoods known as the inner city?  Is it a lost cause?

[ChriswUfGator]

What's the proper term for Riverside & San Marco?

Gentrified.

Again, don't shoot the messenger. That's the proper demographic term.

[thelakelander]

I'm not shooting the messenger.  Is there a term that you would apply that includes the entire original city as one?

Do you think Jacksonville can make these neighborhoods places that won't require residents to drive into Baymeadows?  If so, what are the steps that you believe the city should take?

[ChriswUfGator]

What's the proper term for Riverside & San Marco?  What would you suggest Jacksonville do to improve the urban core that includes these places, as well as the neighborhoods known as the inner city?  Is it a lost cause?

You edited your post after I replied to it, so to reply to the rest of it:

I've said what I believe the issues are that contribute to JAX's sprawl problem, which are horrendous urban planning by a small group of self-interested politicians, the virtual abandonment of downtown, and the lack of any viable public transportation system.

As to what to do to improve the "inner city" areas, which speaking accurately if not politically correctly, would be Springfield, Moncreif, etc., and not Riverside and San Marco, then if the City addresses any or all of the three things I've just identified, then I expect that would go a long way towards a symbiotic solution for these neighborhoods, as they are close to downtown.

But other than that, to a large extent this stuff happens on its own. It is slowly occurring in Springfield, and the other areas will take longer. But when you get right down to the nitty-gritty, this process is more an issue of one demographic group trickling out to other places and another group moving in from other places. And I hate to break it to you, but there's always going to be a "poor" or "inner city" or whatever other term you want to use, area of town. It's the nature of our economy and society. You can relocate people all you want, but at the end of the day they have to go somewhere, right? The true solution is addressing the causes of endemic poverty, which as a society we don't seem to want to do.

[fsujax]

Riverside, San Marco and Springfield are "streecar suburbs" now this conversation will take twist. We need to better connect all of our historic neighborhoods to the CDB and together they all become the "core" of the jacksonville metro area.