Working Group: Transit Issues and SPAR

[thelakelander]

Yellow = BRT route

Red = Commuter Rail corridor

State/Union to Main to 8th and back to North Boulevard


Jefferson to 8th or 10th and back to North Boulevard


State/Union to Main to S-Line ROW to get back to Lem Turner & Gateway

[nvrenuf]

Personally I like # 3 up Main. But what kind of effect does that have on the commercial corridor we hope to have thriving again? I really don't have the urban planning experience to know. # 2 up Jefferson then cutover on 10th W to Boulevard would be my 2nd choice. That at least misses the residential section of Boulevard.

[thelakelander]

Buses every ten minutes would bring the commercial corridor more traffic and visibility.  Those are two important ingredients for any commercial district if it wants to attract additional retail.  Fight hard enough and the transit authority could probably get grant money to bring additional infrastructure improvements to Springfield as a part of such a plan as well. 

[zoo]

Buses every ten minutes would bring the commercial corridor more traffic and visibility.  Those are two important ingredients for any commercial district if it wants to attract additional retail.

I disagree with this, as there is already some commercial density Main and 8th with a great potential for more (with existing strategies and hopefully some lending relief in the near future).

Was BRT killing pedestrian-friendliness, and the potential for retail, exactly the point used to argue against BRT on Adams? Here are a few metrojacksonville.com tidbits as a reminder:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/388/92/

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/626/116/ This is a video every Springfield resident should see.

And here is a quote from article reviewing, among others, the comparable Minneapolis system...

The casual observer would be amazed to learn that most Minneapolis residents despise the continuous stream of bus traffic flowing down the center of the district. A June 2, 2006 Star Tribune article describes the transit mall as “Everyone’s favorite place to eat and inhale exhaust fumes. A simple google search turns up many local blogs, such as Mnspeak.com (http://www.mnspeak.com/mnspeak/archive/post-1871.cfm ) and wowflutter.com (http://www.wowflutter.com/2006/11/05/is-nicollet-mall-overrated/) with posts demanding the nasty non-pedestrian buses be removed from the pedestrian mall.

According to Mayor R.T. Rybak’s Access Minneapolis presentation in November 2006, he mentioned that challenges facing the continued success of Nicollet include congestion of buses, and the noise and diesel fumes created by them.

Maybe you're thinking is that the parallel parking spaces will be a buffer from buses on the sidewalks of Main? Well they aren't now.

I think I'd like to have JTA go with the original idea of the trolley for Main, and pending feasibility study, streetcar. Imho, BRT does not belong on what will ultimately be a pedestrian-friendly Main St, and trolley and streetcar are a better fit with historic neighborhood character.

[Charles Hunter]

I don't think the BRT buses will be "zooming" down Boulevard - or any other street.  From what I remember about the North BRT presentation last month, they would be in mixed traffic.  So they wouldn't be going any faster than whatever traffic is out there now.  JTA did say that on Lem Turner, north of Trout River, where there is a painted out curb lane - they would use it as a bus only lane.  But, from what they said at the meeting, they wouldn't be taking any on-street parking (except downtown along Jefferson and Broad).

[downtownparks]

Doesnt that defeat the entire point of BRT? Isnt it supposed to be a form of rapid transit?

[Charles Hunter]

I think JTA is going for "more frequent" and "more reliable" - the latter by using stuff like special traffic signals that let buses get a head start when the light turns green.  To get the "rapid" of BRT, you need those hugely expensive bus-only roadways.

[downtownparks]

Why would they need to spend millions of dollars on that? They could re-work the existing buses for that. They wont pick up any new customers, but at least they wont be throwing our money down the drain either.

[JaxByDefault]

What JTA is proposing for Boulevard is not comparable to their initial plan for Adams St. downtown. Their new plan for Blvd is basically an improved express service that runs in existing lanes with car traffic, not true dedicated busway BRT. I have no idea why JTA is calling this project "BRT."

I'll admit, there are some good arguments for the idea of running express services on Main, especially if it could shift the costs of some corridor improvements to the transit budget. JTA running the express line on Main would bring project money for landscaping, lighting, bus stop maintenance, and converting the block of Main between State and Union to two-way traffic (a necessary small project for which the city is balking at a paltry 100k price tag). Would these benefits outweigh possible drawbacks?

[thelakelander]

I fail to see the drawbacks for decent bus service on a major street like Main.  There is a huge difference between dedicated busways, transit malls and dependable bus service. 

Our fight against JTA's original BRT plan may have impacted how people view BRT in general.  What JTA is currently proposing is nothing more than reliable bus service.  There is no comparison between reliable bus service for a commercial corridor such as Main to what we fought against with the Adams Street proposal.  The Adams Street plan involved converting the road into a transit mall reserved for only buses.  This is quite different from the city's main north/south federal highway benefitting from reliable bus service.

Here is a description of the various forms of "BRT" for better clarification:

What is BRT
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4020.0.html

[zoo]

Is the existing bus service on Main unreliable? If it is, is that testament to a requirement for better bus service just on Main, or is that a necessity throughout the city of Jax?

I'll admit, there are some good arguments for the idea of running express services on Main, especially if it could shift the costs of some corridor improvements to the transit budget. JTA running the express line on Main would bring project money for landscaping, lighting, bus stop maintenance, and converting the block of Main between State and Union to two-way traffic (a necessary small project for which the city is balking at a paltry 100k price tag). Would these benefits outweigh possible drawbacks?

It is my opinion that Springfield cannot completely rely on the city, any of its authorities or FDOT for funding, especially if the goal of the funding is landscaping or lighting - this was proven by the recent rejection of the trolley operational funding by FDOT, and continues to be proven by direction of stormwater funds and park improvement and maintenance funding to other areas of the city (Brooklyn, with effectively zero residents, though a history of private funding, political and corporate influence, vs Springfield with 4500+ residents, little private funding or political influence, and economic engines that also have some funding reliance on state and federal funding). Springfield is beginning to see more value in pursuing private funding and public-private partnerships for some projects rather than compromising just so funding may be found.

I do think COJ being unable to find $100k for the two-way conversion of Main b/w State and Union is absurd, but do not think a compromise to buses on Main to possibly see some funding for this would be helpful to the community overall (one step forward, two steps back?)

I would still prefer to see trolley, as it will go further in ensuring the character of Main is more consistent with the character of a National Historic District. If Springfield said "Fine, lets do buses on Main, just for a little bit of appearance funding" (the expectation of which, I see as questionable), what is the likelihood JTA would see the urgency (or even need) of Springfield's trolley or streetcar opportunities?

Finally, lets look at the bus stigma issue. Right or wrong, it's there, and Springfield has had enough stigmas to overcome as it is. For these reasons, as well as future park connectivity, BRT on Jefferson is where I stand...

[thelakelander]

Is the existing bus service on Main unreliable? If it is, is that testament to a requirement for better bus service just on Main, or is that a necessity throughout the city of Jax?

JTA's plan is a part of a citywide plan.  Whether its Jefferson, Boulevard or Main, the North Corridor is expected to be a reliable transit route running from I-295 & Lem Turner Road to Downtown.    This is something the city does not have at this point.  Springfield just happens to be located between I-295 and Downtown.  Springfield should view this as an opportunity to improve a certain street through its borders.

It is my opinion that Springfield cannot completely rely on the city, any of its authorities or FDOT for funding, especially if the goal of the funding is landscaping or lighting - this was proven by the recent rejection of the trolley operational funding by FDOT, and continues to be proven by direction of stormwater funds and park improvement and maintenance funding to other areas of the city (Brooklyn, with effectively zero residents, though a history of private funding, political and corporate influence, vs Springfield with 4500+ residents, little private funding or political influence, and economic engines that also have some funding reliance on state and federal funding). Springfield is beginning to see more value in pursuing private funding and public-private partnerships for some projects rather than compromising just so funding may be found.

Never look a gift horse in the mouth.  If JTA wants to spend money in the neighborhood, find a way to use it to the community's best advantage.  With that said, Springfield should not pigeon hole itself into either option.  One of the benefits of long term planning is you have various goals for your community already established.  When an opportunity for investment from either the private or public sector comes along, you'll be in the position to pounce on it.

I do think COJ being unable to find $100k for the two-way conversion of Main b/w State and Union is absurd, but do not think a compromise to buses on Main to possibly see some funding for this would be helpful to the community overall (one step forward, two steps back?)

Its not absurd, its just not a priority (ex. we can come up with $100 million to spend on the Mayor's road plan, $700k for the Main Street pocket park and an additional $148 million for the Jags).  As for the buses, they aren't going anywhere, regardless of whether BRT goes down Main or Blvd.  Again, JTA will spend millions somewhere on this BRT plan and whatever corridor it ends up on will see a significant amount of infrastructure investment.  What they end up with will be better than what they already have set up.  This is a chance for Springfield to get some things fixed up with someone else's money.

I would still prefer to see trolley, as it will go further in ensuring the character of Main is more consistent with the character of a National Historic District. If Springfield said "Fine, lets do buses on Main, just for a little bit of appearance funding" (the expectation of which, I see as questionable), what is the likelihood JTA would see the urgency (or even need) of Springfield's trolley or streetcar opportunities?

I think everyone is familiar with my position of trolleys and streetcars on Main.  There's no way in hell that FDOT will fund ripping up the investment they are making on Main right now to lay streetcar tracks.  While it would be nice, its just not realistic.  This is something I don't need JTA to tell me, its what I've experienced with several private sector projects throughout the State on FDOT maintained roads.  Streetcars on Main are just as realistic as the Mayor's plan to remove a lane off the Main Street Bridge for a large sidewalk and hotdog carts or Springfield's chance of having median cuts at every block.  In my years of working with FDOT, its difficult enough trying to gain access drives into projects, much less pushing a plan that, in their view, will limit the flow and capacity of traffic.

Finally, lets look at the bus stigma issue. Right or wrong, it's there, and Springfield has had enough stigmas to overcome as it is. For these reasons, as well as future park connectivity, BRT on Jefferson is where I stand...

Lets look at the bus stigma issue and add a stone cold fact to the situation.  This is that buses will not be leaving streets in Springfield, like Main or 8th.  The best way to deal with a stigma is to attempt to improve the service and quality of service your system has.  This is what the bus plan is all about.  Whether we like it or not, they are going to invest in improving a corridor throughout the Northside and it will be better than what they are currently running on our streets.  With that in mind, what are the corridors that we would like to see enhanced with someone else's money?  Are there improvements out there that we would like to see in the community that we have a problem finding funding for?  Do we have the possibility to get something funded by working with JTA?  Or do we say, thanks but no thanks, sending the money elsewhere while also eliminating the possibility of additional customer traffic in commercial areas already struggling?  These are the questions we have to ask ourselves when opportunities like this present themselves. 

[downtownparks]

I hate that it seems we are settling as BRT as a forgone conclusion.

Crap.

[zoo]

Springfield isn't turning away money. It's just not foolishly banking on it from local govt or related authorities in this fiscal climate. If COJ/JTA want to fund projects in the community, fine. However, I don't think the community should just sit back and accept what those entities propose just because they will buy us off with beautification, when that is often the smallest piece of the cost pie.

Are there improvements out there that we would like to see in the community that we have a problem finding funding for?

Yes, but this because we have advocated and waited for municipal or authority funding (and are still waiting for the Greenway to happen, the new infrastructure beneath Silver St, the trolley, additional paving/underground utilities in residential areas, park revitalization, Park View Inn demolition, etc.) Springfield has new funding mechanisms in place that could make a big difference in a lot of projects, including beautification on Main - it is important that Springfield use these to their fullest as urgently as possible.

Do we have the possibility to get something funded by working with JTA?

As I've said, I question this. Springfield worked with JTA on the trolley, and the operational service grant got denied in favor of 5 or so others JTA also submitted. JTA (acting as contractor?) completed 8th Street. But funding for that was through BJP, correct? New historically-themed bus stops were put in - if JTA found funding for this, I'll give them credit for this success. I just don't want Springfield to count on, or trade increased bus traffic on our soon-pedestrian-friendly corridor for, some unassured expectation of funding for smaller-cost beautification projects.

BRT on Jefferson is still my vote.

[strider]

Main Street took Fifteen years to get started? It took a privately funded study to even get the ball rolling.  It took years of hard work.   If it wasn't for partnering with the city, the state and JEA, it would never have happened.  The historic sidewalks, parking at all, the pedestrian walk thoughs that are there, the planted medians instead of solid concrete are all the result of hard work and compromise. Is Main Street going to be perfectly ideal?  No.  But it is a huge improvement over not getting it done at all.

A trolley up Main would be truly cool.  I do, however, agree that seeing it anytime soon is somewhat impractical.  But if the folks that started on getting Main Street fifteen years ago thought that way and waited until it was practical, Main Street would be still a dream and a cracked and broken concrete reality.  Want the trolley?  Now is certainly the time to start working towards it.  

Wasn't there once trolleys up other streets as well?  Would it be more practical to run the trolley up a parallel street?  I don't know what would be best, but am simply trying to throw other ideas out there. What about Boulevard?  The parks on one side, a short walk to Main or a short (old fashioned looking and clean) bus ride to Main? Wouldn’t that promote commercial development between the hospital and Main?  Wouldn't that benefit everybody?   Wouldn’t that help make the Park System a destination for the whole city?  As we have been told that the buses would only be running a slow speed anyway, why couldn’t the trolley be part of that so called "BRT" system?  Even if it was initially (old fashioned looking and clean) buses, then converted?  Wouldn’t that make funding easier?  Have it serve two purposes? If the speed was the same and only one or two more strategic stops added, it may actually add a draw to the entire bus system?