Working Group: Transit Issues and SPAR

[sheclown]

thanks JBD.  I do need to educate myself on this.

[FinnegansWake]

Is the most used in SPR on that route at 8th and Pearl? If so, it may be possible to run the bus up Blvd up to 8th then cut over (but the median there may pose a problem).

Concrete saw and a bobcat would fix that.

Re: why buses suck. JTA is no different from CCTA in Vermont. I used that one when my car broke down. Crappy schedules that were never right, dirty interiors, routes that meandered every place you didn't need to go...it took longer to get to my destination than if I had just walked. Which I finally decided to do through the 4-foot snow drifts and sub-zero temperatures (why Sonny...in my day!...).

If I had no transportation and needed to get to work I would use JTA. But if they are looking to increase riders from the middle-class segments they need some serious improvements.

Phil

[strider]

Not to stir anything up, but just to try to put some things in perspective.  On this and other forums, people complained that it was inconvenient to walk two blocks to cross Main Street.  That is the most "out of their way" anyone would have to walk to cross at the current four blocks between cross walks.  Here in this discussion, it is OK to have people walk up to four blocks to get the bus they need to go to work.  So, if the wrong bus routes are changed, someone living on Main Street now could have to walk four blocks or more in the wee hours of the morning to catch a bus, ride for an hour, work for ten hours digging a ditch for minimum wage and then ride back an hour to walk four blocks to get home.  Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

When talking about mass transit, it isn’t just about making it convenient to get to the Landing for fireworks, or to get to Shands even, it is mostly about those hard working people who must ride the bus lines just to make a buck.  Two blocks can and does make a difference.  I would think getting the riders on board to party at the Landing and getting people to work are both important to generate a revenue stream and keep costs down, but one can not be sacrificed for the other.

[thelakelander]

This is why its important for local neighborhood advocates to attend JTA's meetings.  I attend most of their BRT and commuter rail meetings and I have rarely seen anyone from Springfield at them.  Without proper representation, the neighborhood could easily end up with a plan that does not work for the community's residents or jive with SPAR's commercial revitalization plans. 

In the beginning, the same happened with Downtown, until this site started going after them.  Once people realized what was actually being proposed down Adams Street, they finally came out and jumped on board.  When the JEDC and Downtown Vision saw this, they followed suit.  Now we have a plan that's millions of dollars cheaper that won't negatively impact the Northbank core.

Springfield needs to do this as well with the commuter rail and BRT proposals.  For example, what locations would be best for stops along these routes?  How will these stops fit into Springfield's plans for commercial and retail development along these corridors?  Unfortunately, the planning process for these answers and solutions is happening at meetings where neighborhood representatives (outside of Metro Jacksonville) continue not to show up at.

[nvrenuf]

I know I'm being selfish but I don't want any stinking BRT on Boulevard. Here is my very self-centered letter to SPAR:

At last night's general meeting, Jennifer Holbrook stated that we as residents needed to contact the SPAR office to let them know how we felt about the BRT so that SPAR Council could take a stand.

I vehemently oppose and disapprove of BRT on Boulevard. Our home is 1 block off of Boulevard and I already hear the noise from buses. Our old houses do not nor should they have insulated windows that keep the sounds out. I hear the announcements already from the buses that run until midnight. I certainly do not want 8 double buses running every 15 minutes making even more noise not to mention all the extra air pollution and dirt they'll provide. My porches will be rendered useless as there will be no joy left in sitting on them. Imagine how the residents who have homes on Boulevard will feel?

I understand these are to be diesel buses? How unpleasant the greenway park system will be to use when the constant smell of diesel fills the air. We are trying to make McPherson more usable by Shands employees, Schell into a skate plaza as well as improvements to the basketball courts. Why waste the money when there will be no fresh air available???

This is another boneheaded idea by JTA and the city. The residents of Springfield shouldn't have to suffer for their lack of original thinking.

PLEASE, I beg of SPAR Council to take a strong stance against this decision.

And the quick response:

This will be on the Agenda for Monday night, And I will have a draft letter written to JTA which expresses yours, and others concerns.

[thelakelander]

FYI, on Boulevard, JTA proposes to have buses running on that street every 10 minutes.  Their goal is to have a major bus route through the Northside that is reliable with frequent service.  At this point, its unknown whether buses will run mixed with traffic or if they'll propose replacing parallel parking lanes with bus only lanes.  The Springfield stop will be at 8th & Blvd.

[nvrenuf]

Every 10 minutes, even better.

How about using Davis or wiping out Lincoln Court (a benefit to almost everyone) and opening Jefferson up all the way through or at least cutting over to Boulevard when it is no longer residential?

[Ocklawaha]

Why don't you want to use the bus?  How would the trolley be any different?

Is it a safety issue?  A cleanliness issue?  Are the buses too slow? 

How would the trolleys, essentially, be different from the buses?

Don't get me wrong.  I think they are cool.  I'm just trying to understand.

Sheclown: Buses have a certain stigma attached to them that isn't really deserved. There have been hundreds of studies on why people don't like the bus. Answers range from "who rode the short bus in school" to "buses killed trolleys". No one really knows. I think there is a certain spillover effect from the Civil Rights era, a sort of "back of the bus mentality" which makes certain whites uncomfortable and certain black folks a sour memory. There was also a time when Trailways and Greyhound had no restrooms and a bus trip could be VERY trying, perhaps this lingers? Lastly buses stink, unless they run with trolley overhead power, many hate the smell.

Trolleys Bus or Streetcars draw more patrons, it is believed for several reasons.
1. a much larger vehicle with much more room
2. nostalgia
3. a positive fixed guideway - route (no guess work on where it goes)
4. a heavier vehicle with a much superior ride (like a train)
5. a safety record for passengers that is WAY above buses.
6. ability to run on private railroad track at much higher speeds then a city bus.
7. ability to mix into traffic like a city bus
8. ability to run in a subway like a major city heavy rail system
9. ability to run on an elevated "skyway like" rail line
10. Pollution free - it's electric and nearly silent.

Hope this helps.
OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Would be cool to see Streetcar take over from the 8Th Street-Shands station SOUTH into downtown. That would relieve a bunch more buses to do the work in the burbs and thus schedules could be kept much closer and tighter.

There IS A JTA STREETCAR STUDY, so why doesn't Springfield jump on this and ride it home?

OCLAWAHA

[zoo]

SPAR has a working relationship with a transportation planner at JTA, as well as with the head of the dept, Scott Clem. Both have been at SPAR's offices previously to discuss the trolley proposal (which was denied by FDOT) and the streetcar feasibility study (which has been put on hold by JTA for budgetary reasons).

I am in agreement that BRT should not run on Boulevard, but believe it should be moved to Jefferson (or am open to hearing other options). My reasoning is two-fold:

1. An every-10 minute rapid busway will bisect the neighborhood from its park system which is moving toward master planning and revitalization. Imagine the safety of crossing the street to the park system at 5th and Boulevard if rapid busways are zipping through the curve just south of it.

2. I sympathize with my Boulevard neighbors in that, if I were a resident living on Boulevard, I wouldn't want it zooming by in front of my front porch either.

With a Jefferson St. solution, residents will have safer, more integrated access to the park system. The major employers in the area are still served, and the route is still close enough to parks that people from outlying areas may find it easy to visit and enjoy our park system/Historic District/8th St commercial corridor.

[thelakelander]

The Jefferson Street alternative makes sense.  It runs in the heart of the medical campus, right by the proposed VA clinic site and ties in to JTA's plans for BRT down Jefferson Street through LaVilla.

[downtownparks]

Jefferson street would make sense since the VA will be on jefferson, as well as easier access to Shands. The only problem being, Jefferson isnt a through Street. Davis is the only through street on that side, and then you are almost right back to the original BRT path.

I am still dead set against BRT for the north side. there are so many better options, and I refuse to settle for more buses.

[thelakelander]

You would have to cut the BRT path back over to Blvd, along 8th or 10th. 

Another idea may be to run BRT down State & Union, then up Main, to 8th and then north along Blvd.  Its a little longer but it improves bus service along 8th & Main Streets, ties into the Rosa Parks bus/skyway terminal while still serving FCCJ and Shands.  It could also result in BRT money funding the two-way conversion of Main, between State & Union and enhanced lighting/streetscaping on Main between State & 1st Streets.

[downtownparks]

Why not Main to Tallulah?

[zoo]

Jefferson isnt a through Street.

do you mean north of 8th, or b/w state and 1st? if north of 8th, then just use 8th or 10th to cut back over to davis as lake suggests.

then up Main, to 8th and then north along Blvd

lake, confused by this part of your post. if you run it up main to 8th, which i would not be in favor of any more than running it on adams downtown, then how can you go north along blvd? did you mean north of 8th?