Fleet Landing Riverside seeks DDRB conceptual approval

[thelakelander]

I didn't know you had your own practice now Ennis! Great to hear you're rolling up your sleeves like that.

Thanks! 3 years in this past January 1st. So far so good. Been pretty busy nationwide.

[fsu813]

So, you are concerned they will later ask for incentives and the design isn't flushed out and/or vague. Could they change anything they showed once approved? Sorry for the confusion.

I was concerned about the process and the precedent set. Basically,  if you can get a fairly vague idea through conceptual approval and you don't "have to" come back until you're ready for final approval, that's a really bad practice for a community (in this case, downtown). Ultimately, you're placing your downtown hope on each individual applicant getting it right. History has shown, thats a pretty bad position to be in.

A public work shop would likely help. Easy to do. Often beneficial. No reason one couldn't be organized within a few weeks time, prior to final approval.

[thelakelander]

^Offered that option. They may or may not. They aren't required to.

[vicupstate]

@thelakelander Watched the presentation. Didn't realize that was you. Good job! So, they proposed a pharmacy in the space. It seems a bit small for a pharmacy given the space allotted and design layout. What else would you like to see in that space?
FIS's storefront has been vacant for years, at one point they were supposed to partner with Pet Paradise, but that didn't go as planned.

I used to do site selection and planning work for retail developers before shifting to transportation planning and ultimately launching my own urban planning practice. Just so happens, I'm very familiar with supermarkets, big boxes, varioud F&B chains, pharmacies, etc. and their site site design criteria in both urban and suburban areas. That type of product won't work in that space as it was shown at DDRB. It would likely sit empty like FIS' and it would have nothing to do with the market.

Its a simple fix though and one I hope they work out down the line, but could change the costs to construct. The retail would need to be integrated with the garage, allowing for a much larger box footprint and not a narrow side addition squeezed in between the garage and the property line like FIS'.

Given the type of project this is, meaning the age of the residents and the large quantity of them, I imagine the pharmacy is meant to serve the on-site residents primarily and to almost serve as an amenity for them. They might even lease the space at a deep discount to a third party. Just a guess but it would seem logical to me.

BTW, where would this building land on the list of tallest JAX buildings? I assume 3rd or 4th??

[MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain]

^Assuming all proposed towers gets built, possibly 4/5 senior living worldwide. Nationwide for senior living, maybe 3rd? 2nd in Florida with Ft Laud having a proposed 42 story. In Jax, amongst tallest towers, my guess is probably much lower at 4-7. This might be a little premature. Maybe we wait to see what they actually come back with as what they presented was just conceptual.

[thelakelander]

@thelakelander Watched the presentation. Didn't realize that was you. Good job! So, they proposed a pharmacy in the space. It seems a bit small for a pharmacy given the space allotted and design layout. What else would you like to see in that space?
FIS's storefront has been vacant for years, at one point they were supposed to partner with Pet Paradise, but that didn't go as planned.

I used to do site selection and planning work for retail developers before shifting to transportation planning and ultimately launching my own urban planning practice. Just so happens, I'm very familiar with supermarkets, big boxes, varioud F&B chains, pharmacies, etc. and their site site design criteria in both urban and suburban areas. That type of product won't work in that space as it was shown at DDRB. It would likely sit empty like FIS' and it would have nothing to do with the market.

Its a simple fix though and one I hope they work out down the line, but could change the costs to construct. The retail would need to be integrated with the garage, allowing for a much larger box footprint and not a narrow side addition squeezed in between the garage and the property line like FIS'.

Given the type of project this is, meaning the age of the residents and the large quantity of them, I imagine the pharmacy is meant to serve the on-site residents primarily and to almost serve as an amenity for them. They might even lease the space at a deep discount to a third party. Just a guess but it would seem logical to me.

BTW, where would this building land on the list of tallest JAX buildings? I assume 3rd or 4th??

Thats not what they presented (pharmacy facing Riverside Avenue thats only for internal use) to the DDRB. If that were proposed in that particular location, I would have had more serious concern with the preliminary site plan. Outward facing retail, F&B, etc. should be open to the public for any major new infill developmentin downtown. 

[thelakelander]

^Assuming all proposed towers gets built, possibly 4/5 senior living worldwide. Nationwide for senior living, maybe 3rd? 2nd in Florida with Ft Laud having a proposed 42 story. In Jax, amongst tallest towers, my guess is probably much lower at 4-7. This might be a little premature. Maybe we wait to see what they actually come back with as what they presented was just conceptual.

Unfortunately everything proposed in downtown won't come to fruition. Never does. Some projects still fizzle out in cities like NYC and London. But I hope we can get more out of the past then we have in the past 26 years. This project in particular, was requesting conceptual approval to be able to try and find financing before they spent money on a fleshed out concept and design.

[Charles Hunter]

I wonder how much they will have to "take off the top" to make it financially feasible. That is, would the numbers work for a 20-storey building? Fifteen?

[Jax_Developer]

It's quite problematic to see a Senior Living Community as the Highest & Best for this property. They do have an 'ecosystem' mentality so I do wonder what/if any of the associated uses/features will be available/open to the public.

With that being said, I have no doubts this will be an exceptional site based on their other properties.

[Charles Hunter]

One of the articles said the auditorium would be available for community use.

[vicupstate]

@thelakelander Watched the presentation. Didn't realize that was you. Good job! So, they proposed a pharmacy in the space. It seems a bit small for a pharmacy given the space allotted and design layout. What else would you like to see in that space?
FIS's storefront has been vacant for years, at one point they were supposed to partner with Pet Paradise, but that didn't go as planned.

I used to do site selection and planning work for retail developers before shifting to transportation planning and ultimately launching my own urban planning practice. Just so happens, I'm very familiar with supermarkets, big boxes, varioud F&B chains, pharmacies, etc. and their site site design criteria in both urban and suburban areas. That type of product won't work in that space as it was shown at DDRB. It would likely sit empty like FIS' and it would have nothing to do with the market.

Its a simple fix though and one I hope they work out down the line, but could change the costs to construct. The retail would need to be integrated with the garage, allowing for a much larger box footprint and not a narrow side addition squeezed in between the garage and the property line like FIS'.

Given the type of project this is, meaning the age of the residents and the large quantity of them, I imagine the pharmacy is meant to serve the on-site residents primarily and to almost serve as an amenity for them. They might even lease the space at a deep discount to a third party. Just a guess but it would seem logical to me.

BTW, where would this building land on the list of tallest JAX buildings? I assume 3rd or 4th??

Thats not what they presented (pharmacy facing Riverside Avenue thats only for internal use) to the DDRB. If that were proposed in that particular location, I would have had more serious concern with the preliminary site plan. Outward facing retail, F&B, etc. should be open to the public for any major new infill developmentin downtown. 

I would fully expect that a pharmacy would serve the general public and face the street, but the expectation being the on-site residents would be the PRIMARY driver of business. Seeing the value of such an amenity, the developer would have the rent low enough such that the value of the location to CVS/Walgreens/Whoever is worthwhile.   

[thelakelander]

The space is a weird shape thats about the size of a takeout Chinese restaurant or Subway sandwich shop. What was shown was half baked (super conceptual).

If your goal is a CVS or Walgreens, a complete redesign and enlargement of that spot will be necessary at a minimum and doing that could impact BOH access, which could dramatically change what was approved.

Little things like that, which most may overlook if never have been in that specific line of work, are why it would be good for some projects to not proceed too far for Final Approval before being required to workshop at the conceptual level. Hopefully, this particular group will figure it out but the big problem is precedence with the process. The next project may not get it right, will skip all critical checks and balances and DT will end up with some horrible infill that hurts the vision of downtown vibrancy every has been dreaming abouy for the last 70 years.

[MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain]

^ I'd be interested to know how many developers come to the table with half baked conceptual designs? From the presentations of Baptist's hotel and this, they were on either side of the spectrum. One funded and ready to go with minor adjustments while the other, well not so much.
I'd like to remain optimistic about their final product. They've been primarily in Jax for many years and have great communities. I don't think this would be any exception This is a little different what they've done in the past, but I think they'll get it right when it's all said and done. Would be nice if they do touch base halfway through just for a quick glance over but that time will come. They're very early in the process and have to do things differently unfortunately. Now if this was done Joe Schmo then I'd think twice about it, but let's give them a chance and see how things pan out.
Not related, but the disposition has ended for the old courthouse site. Interested to see what has came out of that. As well as in curious to know what's up with the permits on getting the Related Jax going. Probably won't see cranes until fall at this rate. Lastly, not reading too much into it, but kinda am - MOSH. They requested another extension and it was approved. Is it ever going to happen? And they have a substantially completion date set for 1 Aug 2029 rather than 30 Jan 2029. Are we gearing up to throw our hat in the ring to host the 2030 NFL draft? Or do they want it up and running prior to the season beginning? Latest on Gateway proposal for Riverfront Plaza? My guess is an Edition with additional floors - key rooms 40/60% residential. Kinda upset the Lion Group fell through that looked beautiful. But everything happens for a reason.

[jcjohnpaint]

There is part of me that understands council questioning incentives, especially since every project asks for the maximum amount of incentives regardless of what they put forward and DIA passes everything on to council. I'm guessing a good Masterplan would explicitly spell out what developers would have present at every level to get awarded full incentives or the highest priority. Seems like most of the last tower proposals over the last 10 years said little, but asked for everything.

[thelakelander]

^Yes a good plan and revision of public policy to align with that plan would resolve most of the issues I've expressed, as they rid us of the wild west situation that's hurt downtown's momentum over the decades. Instead, we'd get predicatibility, and time saving efficiency. Hell, do it right and we wouldn't even need a DDRB.