City unveils Jaguars stadium plan

[Jax_Developer]

Its hard for me to see in scenario of the Jags building a stadium in St. Johns, Nassau, Clay or Baker (or literally any other area of town outside of the Sports & Entertainment District) as a positive for Jacksonville.

I mean... that's a pretty loaded statement. Are you also okay with 50 acres of parking for 30 years in our Sports & Entertainment District? I for one am against Stroads & massive parking lots downtown... which completely engulf our current stadium. Are these investments really going to pan out?

Let's not kid ourselves, if the COJ didn't spend close to 50% of its CIP budget downtown, where would things be at? Let's not act like district 7 is the only district still recovering from consolidation. Why we would spend a billion+ downtown, to then give 50 acres of parking to the Jags is absolutely astonishing.

Time will expose the truth. It's amazing how fast the rhetoric has changed between administrations and how little people care. This money is also for Duval County, but it certainly doesn't seem that way.

I'm 100% of the team not leaving city limits or moving outside of downtown. I'm also 100% against taking out a large swath of another urban core neighborhood for a new stadium. I can't speak for everyone, but location is important to me.

I'm 100% against the city using 50 acres of DT for parking. The city had no obligation to create a parking agreement. The lack of logic here is just mind-blowing.

[thelakelander]

Then we should negotiate how we want to address parking within the scope of the project. I don't see how 50 acres of the site can be dedicated to only parking, assuming the plan is to also develop a mixed-use district around the stadium. At some point, some vertical parking element would need to be added to the mix.

[Jax_Developer]

It should have never been included in the first place. Same with the $25M credit that can be applied to multiple parcel, with a 2025 appraisal that can be executed within 7 years.

Every other deal, literally, every other deal, you guys can try to find will not include such sweeping language. It really feels like a circus locally - entrusting locals to get it right - not understanding how these creative deals absolutely kill future development. Instead, we opt for a route which will be forced to include public negotiations & incentives.

Zero issues with them staying downtown.

Just saying... Buffalo? The "other" CBA deal right? Model for our deal? Suburb. There is no logic from 'the other side' here. I don't mean to be rude, it's just the facts.

[tufsu1]

The 3 big lots at the stadium currently half the 50 acre total

Lot J - 10 acres
Lot Z - 7 acres not including adjacent garage
Lots C & D - 8 acres

This isn't even mentioning the fairgrounds, grass lots, Tailgaters parking, etc.

Plus Shad says they're building a neighborhood
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/aug/07/shad-khan-were-building-a-neighborhood-in-jacksonville/

[Jax_Developer]

The 3 big lots at the stadium currently half the 50 acre total

Lot J - 10 acres
Lot Z - 7 acres not including adjacent garage
Lots C & D - 8 acres

This isn't even mentioning the fairgrounds, grass lots, Tailgaters parking, etc.

Plus Shad says they're building a neighborhood
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/aug/07/shad-khan-were-building-a-neighborhood-in-jacksonville/

All on your dime. 

[jaxoNOLE]

Had the city not agreed to the parking and $25M credit, what impact (if any) would it have had on the stadium split? Either these pot-sweeteners were needed to seal the deal, or else the Jags would have extracted concessions of similar value elsewhere (maybe a less favorable split on the stadium) -- or, maybe our negotiators were hoodwinked, though our consultants were the same ones Buffalo used.

Only the people directly involved really know how hard-won those concessions are.

It does feel wonky, however, that we're committing to parking in the same footprint as a planned future development. This feels like an agreement that is destined for renegotiation. No doubt there's hundreds of millions in additional taxpayer cost yet to be requested for the entertainment district, and no doubt Shad does not really want 50 acres of surface lots surrounding his our new stadium.

Still, staying downtown was the only option because renovation was the only option. No other counties are willing to subsidize the stadium. Building a new stadium in the burbs of Duval (where??) may have produced a more favorable split -- maybe -- but would have cost more overall.

Splitting the entertainment district out feels like a risk hedge. Risk hedges cost money. It likely would have been a better deal all in for the city to negotiate in one big package. But the Jags are now secured for 30 years and if the city cannot afford what Shad wants for the district, they can decline without the threat of losing the Jags. As we see rumblings of budget deficits on the horizon, this could be the outcome we get. No doubt Council will be sympathetic, but if we can't afford it, we can't afford it. Purely speculating, I think the aforementioned concessions likely reflect the intrinsic option value of that risk hedge that will soothe Shad's aching wallet if he is rebuffed on his request for incentives on the entertainment district.

[jax_hwy_engineer]

I for one love having my taxes subsidize the profiteering efforts of billionaires, all so I can pay $20 to park, $12 for a crappy slice of pizza, and $15 for a Bud Light on top of the astronomical prices of tickets even in the nosebleeds.

I don't care that downtown is dead most of the time, and that our infrastructure is crumbling around the city, or that we have needlessly complicated one-way streets that stifle the development of long vacant properties throughout downtown, alls I care about is being taxed to pay for football and having to shell out $100+ of personal funds on football to watch the Jags get destroyed on the field in person

/s

[thelakelander]

It should have never been included in the first place. Same with the $25M credit that can be applied to multiple parcel, with a 2025 appraisal that can be executed within 7 years.

Every other deal, literally, every other deal, you guys can try to find will not include such sweeping language. It really feels like a circus locally - entrusting locals to get it right - not understanding how these creative deals absolutely kill future development. Instead, we opt for a route which will be forced to include public negotiations & incentives.

Zero issues with them staying downtown.

Just saying... Buffalo? The "other" CBA deal right? Model for our deal? Suburb. There is no logic from 'the other side' here. I don't mean to be rude, it's just the facts.

I don't think you can put everyone in the same boat. For example, I don't care about what Buffalo is doing. I also don't care about stadium projects in the suburbs. I am personally biased to the use of a CBA to finally address a century of disinvestment in a local historic African American community. I'm all ears for good examples that other communities and teams have done in this arena with their stadium deals. Otherwise, I fall in the general camp of stadium deals being a loser for the public, including the examples you've mentioned. However, I'll admit, what I value isn't going to be the same as the average person on either side of this discussion.

[Jax_Developer]

I'm not for the Jags moving locations. The unfortunate reality is that we have shot ourselves in the leg while attempting to run a sprint. The process for renegotiations is laborious & Khan will utilize incentives that are legally available to him at this very moment. I don't see how the city can deny his plans. They have hindered any other developer from ever taking on projects on these parcels because the cost of construction for parking spaces (per SF) will skyrocket development costs.

I don't care what Buffalo, Cleveland or Charlotte are doing either, but I certainly will compare those deals to ours to see what "deal" we got. To argue that Cleveland's deal is "bad" because they are moving out of DT is dishonest to the conversation here. I think this deal could have been left at the 55/45 split (lol) & the Jags would have still negotiated one of the best stadium deals of the modern era. Now, there will be this cry for more CBA funds, while nobody important acknowledges this crazy parking arrangement & how it essentially has killed any future private development (besides Iguana Investments).

[jaxoNOLE]

No argument that we handicapped ourselves -- that was a given the second we declared that losing the Jags was not an option. It's true that any stadium-adjacent development will need to be done with Iguana...but I think there's a chance we see it stagnate for some time if we don't have the money.

The public really didn't like the stadium deal (6%-47% approval, depending on the poll & specific question you pick). At all. They liked the CBA funds (81%). Setting aside the debate over whether the CBA is well-conceived, what's obvious is that the public wants the city spending money on priorities other than the stadium (58%). If the city kills or scales back additional CBA funds, funds an entertainment district, and then moans about deficits impacting homeless services, transit, trash, infrastructure, and actual downtown development, then they'll have acted against the public will at every step along the way. Even in Jacksonville, I imagine that would come at a steep political cost (ever the "optimist," I guess).

[Joey Mackey]

Even if it is a "bad" deal (it is not) it is more important to Jacksonville to have the Jaguars with a "bad" deal (including the accompanying Sports & Entertainment District, which includes a Four-Season Hotel, and rejuvenation of one of its most underserved but historic neighborhoods) than to lose all of that.

If people want to live in Birmingham, Louisville, or some other Southern City without a Big Four sports franchise, those options exist. Jacksonville, thankfully, will never be like that.

[jaxoNOLE]

It's a bad deal in the eyes of anyone who doesn't care about the Jags, or views them as a nice perk but not a necessity.

To those who view having an NFL team as core to the City's identity, this a pretty good deal.

It's pretty hard to bridge a fundamental gap like that. Personally, I thought the CBA was a clever way of benefiting both sides (even if unequally). It's obviously up for debate.

[Jax_Developer]

Even if it is a "bad" deal (it is not) it is more important to Jacksonville to have the Jaguars with a "bad" deal (including the accompanying Sports & Entertainment District, which includes a Four-Season Hotel, and rejuvenation of one of its most underserved but historic neighborhoods) than to lose all of that.

If people want to live in Birmingham, Louisville, or some other Southern City without a Big Four sports franchise, those options exist. Jacksonville, thankfully, will never be like that.

Look at my post history. Have never indicated I wanted the Jags to leave. I goto the games regularly. I'll say it for the hundredth time, the deal should have been left at the stadium deal split. The deal would have been "good" if we left it there.

The facts remain that our city chose to create a parking agreement across 50+ acres. Our city chose to outline terms that place the parking agreement in automatic default - as I write this. Our city continues to support completion grants downtown while we never took Khan's stadium proposal seriously (not my words). Nobody is analyzing the impacts from these mistakes because there is no real consequence right now. These mistakes will cost the city tens, probably, hundreds of millions of dollars over this agreement. It will be another administration's issue. A tale as old as time.

Meanwhile, we debate a CBA that is truly irrelevant when you compare the extremely obvious future outlay the city will have - to maintain the required parking agreement... for less than 10 days a year. Incredible negotiations from Iguana. They somehow got 50+ acres of downtown land locked up... for basically nothing. 

[thelakelander]

Got it. You think its a bad deal. That's pretty clear. I for one, am not trying to change your mind.

[Tacachale]

It's a bad deal in the eyes of anyone who doesn't care about the Jags, or views them as a nice perk but not a necessity.

To those who view having an NFL team as core to the City's identity, this a pretty good deal.

It's pretty hard to bridge a fundamental gap like that. Personally, I thought the CBA was a clever way of benefiting both sides (even if unequally). It's obviously up for debate.

It's the biggest CBA in NFL history, and will get bigger once the remainder passes Council. And the bulk of the money the city's putting in are things we already were or should have been doing anyway. It's a great deal that only gets better in comparison to other major league stadium deals, though hopefully, it represents a trend of cities getting bigger and better CBAs that spread the benefits more widely in the community when they build stadiums.

Had the city not agreed to the parking and $25M credit, what impact (if any) would it have had on the stadium split? Either these pot-sweeteners were needed to seal the deal, or else the Jags would have extracted concessions of similar value elsewhere (maybe a less favorable split on the stadium) -- or, maybe our negotiators were hoodwinked, though our consultants were the same ones Buffalo used.

Only the people directly involved really know how hard-won those concessions are.

It does feel wonky, however, that we're committing to parking in the same footprint as a planned future development. This feels like an agreement that is destined for renegotiation. No doubt there's hundreds of millions in additional taxpayer cost yet to be requested for the entertainment district, and no doubt Shad does not really want 50 acres of surface lots surrounding his our new stadium.

Still, staying downtown was the only option because renovation was the only option. No other counties are willing to subsidize the stadium. Building a new stadium in the burbs of Duval (where??) may have produced a more favorable split -- maybe -- but would have cost more overall.

Splitting the entertainment district out feels like a risk hedge. Risk hedges cost money. It likely would have been a better deal all in for the city to negotiate in one big package. But the Jags are now secured for 30 years and if the city cannot afford what Shad wants for the district, they can decline without the threat of losing the Jags. As we see rumblings of budget deficits on the horizon, this could be the outcome we get. No doubt Council will be sympathetic, but if we can't afford it, we can't afford it. Purely speculating, I think the aforementioned concessions likely reflect the intrinsic option value of that risk hedge that will soothe Shad's aching wallet if he is rebuffed on his request for incentives on the entertainment district.

Couple things here -- both sides are committed to building out the entertainment district, but it wasn't feasible to get it together along with the stadium deal. That will change the parking lot situation, events, etc. even more dramatically than just the stadium and parks projects.

Also, we did explore a new stadium build (in the stadium district) but the numbers aren't there. Though it's certainly the case that the city (under this or any other administration) would never consider a football stadium deal outside of Downtown, as not only would that have all the costs of a new build, it wouldn't have the benefits of the current location. Nor do the surrounding communities have the resources to make a bid themselves as is.

Then we should negotiate how we want to address parking within the scope of the project. I don't see how 50 acres of the site can be dedicated to only parking, assuming the plan is to also develop a mixed-use district around the stadium. At some point, some vertical parking element would need to be added to the mix.

Yeah, there's going to be considerable change in this area in the next several years, let alone the next 30. Structured parking, etc. is pretty much a guarantee.