The Downtown jail fallacy

[fsu813]

First Coast News reported today that the JSO offices were contemplating moving to the Florida Blue building on Riverside Ave, due to a pest infestation.

Would this preclude the School Board from moving to Florida Blue on Riverside? FB is one of the two relocation bids the DCPS is still evaluating - the other being a new build near the JTA's LaVilla site.

Was told building new by JTA was off the table.

[Jax_Developer]

We're talking about county jails and city's investing in their public facilities and spaces. A city investing or not investing in its public spaces isn't the same as comparing building a skyscraper in Manhattan, Ft Lauderdale, Jax or Palm Coast. A city can and should invest in itself regardless of market size. We'd love to see Jax invest in itself and not make excuses for not doing so. That's basically what the editorial was about. From that perspective, Columbus is very appropriate for a comparison. The Franklin County Jail being in downtown did not stop them from investing in Columbus Commons two blocks away. It didn't stop them from keeping their public streets clean or creating an environment where residents want to be.

Right, and yet our jail is still the only example that I am aware of that exists on a "government island" while sitting on some of the most prime real estate the city has today. Not surrounded by court rooms or social services like virtually every other example that exists.

Columbus itself has a downtown job density of 93/acre according to their 2021 employment figures. Why is DT Jacksonville lacking so far behind, at roughly 20-25/acre? What has made countless firms evacuate DT over several decades? It's not the street infrastructure or lack of sidewalk activation.

[thelakelander]

Why is DT Jacksonville lacking so far behind, at roughly 20-25/acre? What has made countless firms evacuate DT over several decades? It's not the street infrastructure or lack of sidewalk activation.

We've talked about these issues since this forum was created. We've continued to ignore or not address the majority of them. They aren't centered around the jail.

[Jax_Developer]

That's a nice claim to make, yet you haven't provided reasons as to what another factor could be the case, but for only the Northbank.

"Many cities with far more vibrant downtowns than Jacksonville have jails in even more high-profile places."

Just like this claim. Where? Literally where? I've looked at so many jails because of this.. Still yet to see a single one in a better location that ours. (I don't wanna hear about FLL again, it's not comparable) When virtually every market surrounding the CC is doing well, and the entire city is doing well... I think there needs be a more realistic conclusion. Two statements can be true.

1). The jail is not the reason the CC fell into economic turmoil
2). The jail is what is currently holding back the CC

"Conventional wisdom holds that the jail is bad for Downtown and takes up valuable space that could otherwise go to something else. But conventional wisdom on Downtown Jacksonville often has the problem of being completely wrong."

Or, there have been poor decisions in the past... and we don't need to redefine economics and urban planning to get this one right.

[thelakelander]

There's 15 years of articles on a variety of subjects on this website that have covered these issues. I have a busy day of meetings, so I don't have immediate time to dig up all of them. A lack of real downtown master plan, the 1990s consolidation of banking and insurance headquarters in downtown, the inability to follow through on RFPs of public land, the inability to address the convention center issue, the demolition of the Landing, the continued demolition of historic building stock with no follow up development plans, the 3Cs, are just a few that come to mind. It's not all about the jail. That's basically what the editorial intended to address.

[simms3]

^As I've said before, I don't think anyone here disagrees that the idea of the jail being downtown has potential issues. The actual point of contention is the idea that moving the jail at all costs is alone the silver bullet to revitalize downtown, and that we should pursue doing so regardless of whatever else we could have spent that money on. It's a question of priorities, not virtue.

There's nothing in this article that precludes us from spending limited resources on the smaller ticket items we've never bothered to do in the first place and then if the opportunity presents itself because the jail is already at EOL to move it. That's perfectly fine on its own merits. But rushing to move it ASAP because blowing it up will save downtown somehow doesn't make sense, especially when it's exactly the argument that's been made for plenty of other projects before.

This is the crux.  Someone in Jax higher levels (that everyone respects as a genius leader) creates a talking point and it blows up in all the Jax leadership circles.  It's the same thing with the "magic" 10,000 units number (which already morphed from 10,000 residents).  This is a city hung up on talking points based on "experts" saying something at some point.

So now the latest talking point is the jail.  We need to move the jail out of downtown because it's what's holding everything back and once we do, magically things will explode.

I hate to say it, but there is at some point an extreme level of stupidity with which we approach "matters" related to downtown.  We can't even fix Friendship Fountain and open that park back up in less than 4 years, but sure, we need to create an emergency situation about moving the jail so that downtown can flourish.  Oh, and once we have 10,000 units downtown spread across the 4 square miles that are the boundaries (with a river dividing it all, as well as overpasses, etc), we'll have downtown department stores again and crowded sidewalks!

It's the Jessie Ball duPont Fund crowd talking points.  The foundation donor class in Jacksonville loves these things and they all get behind them and start repeating them in all the marketing materials that eventually get created, and the "master plans", etc etc.  There's a "hyper intelligentsia" class in Jax, but we have nothing to show from all of this supposed brain power.

[Tacachale]

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations.  Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

There's also the fact that if you take the jail out of Downtown, you're also taking out 750 or more officers and staff, so even if there were a plus there'd be a minus too. Agree that the real question isn't whether the jail should be moved -- that's for JSO and city leaders to determine based on needs and the condition of the jail -- just that improving Downtown shouldn't be a factor in the answer.

Or prematurely moving without contemplating all possibilities. It seems like the conversation has been based around the jail needing to be moved right now or our downtown is doomed, like so many of the decisions that have been made in the last 15 years. The Landing is the perfect example. It was torn down before anyone could even think and now we are dealing with the cost and consequences.

I'm very over this 750 JSO jobs argument. Nobody is relocating the entire police force. So were only talking these 750 jobs.. for 11 acres? I mean really.. for 11 acres people are sweating over 750 jobs? In a downtown central core? Some cities entire urban limits have higher job densities than 200 per acre and we're really sweating over 69 jobs/acre in our central core? The math doesn't math.

I'm all for a plan & a study. I think the idea that the jail hasn't contributed to crime, blight and a lagging CC is just beyond comprehension. This article doesn't highlight what cities with poor urban centers are doing now to change their poor current circumstances. That should be the conversation. This article, and the arguments around moving 750 jobs, are frankly divisive. Otherwise, y'all should try and professionally publish a piece on how urban jails don't detract from vibrant urban centers and see how far that goes.

Yes, moving out 750 jobs for 11 acres that'll still sit vacant for years is not a smart move if downtown revival is the goal. You'd be spending $244 million to replace 750 workers with 0 workers. Talk about math that doesn't math.

Many cities do have higher job density, but many cities also have more vibrant Downtowns than we do, including many that have a downtown jail that's in a more central area than ours. There aren't many cities our size with slower downtowns than ours, and I expect even fewer that have turned everything around by moving their jail.

So removing the most detrimental downtown use will result in vacant use of 11 prime acres of land for years? Huh? Let me guess, the surrounding land won't increase in value either? Oh and while we're at it, we aren't going to finance anything, the city is just going to pony up the cash up front? Yeah.. IDK about all that. I'm more highlighting some misconceptions being illustrated here.. The Northbank has more vacant office space than the entire metro combined.. and don't think that's because the Northbank has a ton of space relative to other parts of the city.. it doesn't. So, this article is defending keeping 750 jobs on the Northbank, at the cost of thousands of professional jobs in substitute? Oh and no retail spending, or dwelling units? When does it stop... What else is making the Northbank a vacuum in a market that is experiencing some of the highest levels of growth nationwide?

Heavy heavy heavy sunk cost cope.

There's not much new construction on any of Downtown's many other empty lots and vacant sites that are far better positioned than the jail site. Hell, the Landing site is as well positioned as it gets and it's been vacant for more than 4 years. So no, it's unlikely the jail site will be different. We have a better bet getting "thousands of professional jobs" in some of the underused buildings or cheaper, better sites than we do waiting for a silver bullet at the jail site. *Maybe* it moves faster if the city builds something there itself, but that's hundreds of millions more dollars on top of the $244 million (at least) to move the jail. Heavy heavy heavy unrealistic fantasy cope.

[simms3]

Columbus itself has a downtown job density of 93/acre according to their 2021 employment figures. Why is DT Jacksonville lacking so far behind, at roughly 20-25/acre? What has made countless firms evacuate DT over several decades? It's not the street infrastructure or lack of sidewalk activation.

It's true that the banking/insurance consolidation of the 1990s took a toll on Jacksonville.  However, and I hate to say it because the city is filled with great people, and I certainly don't have money to put where my mouth is, but people living east of the river tend not to give a s**t about DT Jacksonville as they are more beach/town center oriented.  People in the Ortega/Avondale/San Marco neighborhoods do because they tend to still work downtown and many of the donors of the symphony, MOSH, etc come from these parts.  However, they just don't care enough about downtown.  There's still the stupidest perception problems even amongst people living 10 minutes away and working downtown (I would call this a total lack of sophistication in thinking, and no ability to realistically compare to other places).

I hate to say it and it makes me feel bad, but our local millionaire business leader class isn't as good to this city's downtown/otherwise as other cities', from what I've seen.  We don't have as good of leaders, public AND private, in my opinion.  I feel terrible saying this because the people we have are good people and they do donate to lots of causes, but I feel like there's still quite a bit left on the table.  I think there's a little bit of extra greed in this town, and we don't have big old timer business leaders doing enough to try to revive downtown.

One of the biggest downtown advocates and business leaders is Brian Wolfburg of Vystar.  He's a young and relatively recent transplant and he has single-handedly done more than anyone I can think of in Ortega/Avondale for bringing momentum downtown in recent years.

Alex Sifakis of JWB is not from here, but is doing his part on the development side (as is Andy and a few others).  But our entrenched "upper class" could really care less, despite all the lip service.  To them (and their children) downtown is still an empty place filled with homeless that they don't care about aside from coming into work and then leaving.  There's no real local sense of pride here.

Like where is the Civic Council on how freaking long it's taking the city to finish Friendship Fountain?  I know they are all "behind the scenes" (as is everything in Jax and look where that gets us), but the fact that business leaders aren't publicly banging down the doors to get things moving is evidence of how little they actually care at the end of the day.

Love him or hate him, Trump is an example of a NYC business man who routinely stepped in to matters to get things done and past red tape in New York.  The Wollman ice skating rink is a classic example.  I can think of other examples in plenty of other cities of local private sector leaders getting fed up and making things happen.  We just don't have that in Jax - lots of wealthy people satisfied with the status quo around here.

So that translates to fewer jobs per acre in our downtown because nobody from our business community really cares to try to turn that around.

[simms3]

There's not much new construction on any of Downtown's many other empty lots and vacant sites that are far better positioned than the jail site. Hell, the Landing site is as well positioned as it gets and it's been vacant for more than 4 years. So no, it's unlikely the jail site will be different. We have a better bet getting "thousands of professional jobs" in some of the underused buildings or cheaper, better sites than we do waiting for a silver bullet at the jail site. *Maybe* it moves faster if the city builds something there itself, but that's hundreds of millions more dollars on top of the $244 million (at least) to move the jail. Heavy heavy heavy unrealistic fantasy cope.

Don't you DARE talk about trying to bring office jobs to downtown Jax.  That won't do anything to improve the situation.  We only need apartments now, that's the magic recipe.

[Tacachale]

There's not much new construction on any of Downtown's many other empty lots and vacant sites that are far better positioned than the jail site. Hell, the Landing site is as well positioned as it gets and it's been vacant for more than 4 years. So no, it's unlikely the jail site will be different. We have a better bet getting "thousands of professional jobs" in some of the underused buildings or cheaper, better sites than we do waiting for a silver bullet at the jail site. *Maybe* it moves faster if the city builds something there itself, but that's hundreds of millions more dollars on top of the $244 million (at least) to move the jail. Heavy heavy heavy unrealistic fantasy cope.

Don't you DARE talk about trying to bring office jobs to downtown Jax.  That won't do anything to improve the situation.  We only need apartments now, that's the magic recipe.

Haha! Whatever we're trying to bring in, we have a better chance of doing that in our underused buildings than in waiting to build a new jail, demolish the old one and then build something from scratch.

[marcuscnelson]

First Coast News reported today that the JSO offices were contemplating moving to the Florida Blue building on Riverside Ave, due to a pest infestation.

Would this preclude the School Board from moving to Florida Blue on Riverside? FB is one of the two relocation bids the DCPS is still evaluating - the other being a new build near the JTA's LaVilla site.

Was told building new by JTA was off the table.

Unfortunate because a new building would be cool, but like I said before we don't really need more office space right now. Much better to fill and re-utilize existing space.

^As I've said before, I don't think anyone here disagrees that the idea of the jail being downtown has potential issues. The actual point of contention is the idea that moving the jail at all costs is alone the silver bullet to revitalize downtown, and that we should pursue doing so regardless of whatever else we could have spent that money on. It's a question of priorities, not virtue.

There's nothing in this article that precludes us from spending limited resources on the smaller ticket items we've never bothered to do in the first place and then if the opportunity presents itself because the jail is already at EOL to move it. That's perfectly fine on its own merits. But rushing to move it ASAP because blowing it up will save downtown somehow doesn't make sense, especially when it's exactly the argument that's been made for plenty of other projects before.

This is the crux.  Someone in Jax higher levels (that everyone respects as a genius leader) creates a talking point and it blows up in all the Jax leadership circles.  It's the same thing with the "magic" 10,000 units number (which already morphed from 10,000 residents).  This is a city hung up on talking points based on "experts" saying something at some point.

So now the latest talking point is the jail.  We need to move the jail out of downtown because it's what's holding everything back and once we do, magically things will explode.

I hate to say it, but there is at some point an extreme level of stupidity with which we approach "matters" related to downtown.  We can't even fix Friendship Fountain and open that park back up in less than 4 years, but sure, we need to create an emergency situation about moving the jail so that downtown can flourish.  Oh, and once we have 10,000 units downtown spread across the 4 square miles that are the boundaries (with a river dividing it all, as well as overpasses, etc), we'll have downtown department stores again and crowded sidewalks!

It's the Jessie Ball duPont Fund crowd talking points.  The foundation donor class in Jacksonville loves these things and they all get behind them and start repeating them in all the marketing materials that eventually get created, and the "master plans", etc etc.  There's a "hyper intelligentsia" class in Jax, but we have nothing to show from all of this supposed brain power.

There's very much a big sense of anxiety amongst the city's leadership about Jacksonville's place in Florida and the economy, but they're such "big picture" people about anything outside their direct field that the solutions to that anxiety look something like "we need to be a tech hub" or "we should move the homeless/jail" instead of deeper considerations about developing a good city.

Personally I don't mind the goal of however many residents or units, just to have something to aim for, but it's folly to assume that by hitting that number you level-up somehow and things just improve by themselves.

There's not much new construction on any of Downtown's many other empty lots and vacant sites that are far better positioned than the jail site. Hell, the Landing site is as well positioned as it gets and it's been vacant for more than 4 years. So no, it's unlikely the jail site will be different. We have a better bet getting "thousands of professional jobs" in some of the underused buildings or cheaper, better sites than we do waiting for a silver bullet at the jail site. *Maybe* it moves faster if the city builds something there itself, but that's hundreds of millions more dollars on top of the $244 million (at least) to move the jail. Heavy heavy heavy unrealistic fantasy cope.

Don't you DARE talk about trying to bring office jobs to downtown Jax.  That won't do anything to improve the situation.  We only need apartments now, that's the magic recipe.

Haha! Whatever we're trying to bring in, we have a better chance of doing that in our underused buildings than in waiting to build a new jail, demolish the old one and then build something from scratch.

I'm thinking now about the plan Lori Boyer told me at the DIA branding meeting that one time. For the Shipyards and Hardwick and other projects to somehow raise land prices enough that it'd be just fine and dandy for the Hyatt to buy the Annex parcel and that a developer would pay for a convention hotel site at the jail. That was just a year and a half ago now but... lol.

[Jax_Developer]

Can't raise land values enough on property sitting adjacent to a jail with elevated crime to build 20-story rental towers. Just not happening. We're in a loop of wanting something to happen without actually trying to understand why or the real math behind how this works.

Other cities haven't shot their CC in the foot to the point of making hotel, office, and condos all impossible in our most expensive real estate but not. People here don't wanna hear it & that's fine. In the 1980's, the CC, near our jail, could sustain 300'+ structures for-profit. Now? Virtually nothing. Jail has played no part in that though and should remain exactly where it is and we should spend 10 years arguing over it. Clearly, the Northbank has improved since opening day.

[thelakelander]

20 story residential buildings next to the jail are likely not the top priority in downtown at the moment. Right now, the actual core needs a lot of investment. 

[marcuscnelson]

Some form of study by Council is set to begin. Also includes Lori Boyer's pitch on the jail site for a convention center.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/14/city-council-special-committee-will-study-downtown-jail-police-facilities/

[thelakelander]

Everyone is pitching for their pet projects. I'm just glad the core focus on this study is on public safety and not convention centers, apartments and other things. The time will come to figure all that out, once the true needs are accessed and fully understood.