Rethinking Jacksonville’s convention center dilemma

[heights unknown]

Jacksonville is the way it is because it's the way your average, normal, everyday Jacksonville voter wants it to be.  Modern, progressive citizens are a minority in this town.  Having been born here, educated, and raised here, I know.  When young we were taught to finish school, perhaps join the military, and get a "steady job" at a paper mill, chemical plant, or military base.  You can't blame only the city council, city boards, or even the mayor for where we are.  The voters demand it.  This way of thinking is slowly fading away, but not fast enough.  We have an inferiority complex and in many ways we are.  The only way out of this jamb is to elect people to public office that will LEAD us into the 21st century.  Most people my age think the way we are is perfect.  I'm glad I don't feel that way.

Not to get "off topic," but what's wrong with joining the military? I got my college education paid for through the military/government, ascended to mid level management staff rank (Chief Petty Officer), got to see over half of the world, managed and directed work centers, divisions, and departments, managed and directed hundreds of Sailors and thousands of dollars/finances, and was inundated with numerous high profile awards, decorations and medals; don't think anything is wrong with that (I retired from the military). However, setting THAT (the military) aside I see where you are coming from on this post, and I agree wholeheartedly.

[jaxlongtimer]

In many ways over the years, Jacksonville has mimicked a more rural/small town mindset than an urban one.  That's no aspersion on anyone, just noting a common cultural difference.  With consolidation including much rural land, I believe that got magnified or more sustained over the last 50+ years.  This is not a new observation about consolidation but it does bear repeating.

Today, most rural areas in Duval County are quickly disappearing, giving way to suburban housing and/or commercial development.  As noted, this is supporting a progression toward more "big city" style thinking, albeit frustratingly slow.  I think the main advantage of adding downtown/urban core area residents is to accelerate this trend by tipping the scales more to the type of approaches frequently discussed on the Jaxson boards.

The other issue is the City has been long controlled by a handful of "power brokers" who were more concerned with their pocketbooks more than the general welfare of the the community.  With the growth in our population numbers, hopefully, this power is becoming more diluted over time and the City becomes more responsive to the larger community.  Unfortunately, this transition, too, is frustratingly slow.  In many ways, this may be our biggest holdback.  Just look at how the Curry administration functions in the present.  I am concerned that  if Mr. Davis of the Chamber becomes our next mayor, it will continue for more years to come.  The next election for mayor will tell us just how far the community is progressing.

[landfall]

To me Bay Street should be a strip of bars and restaurants. On each side.

Convention Center a better fit for the Sports Complex. Not squeezed onto a small amount of land.

[vicupstate]

To me Bay Street should be a strip of bars and restaurants. On each side.

Convention Center a better fit for the Sports Complex. Not squeezed onto a small amount of land.

If it were vacant now, the Sheriff/Jail site would be ideal. Just keep a view corridor from the entrance to the river (obviously very doable). You would have significant space available while still being close to the core and Bay Street and the Hyatt, all without taking up riverfront land.  And it would at least be a lot closer to Four Seasons, etc than the current center or one on the City Hall annex site. 

[marcuscnelson]

Except it's not vacant. And making it so costs about as much as a convention center before you've even started building the thing.

Which brings us back around to the original issues of the Prime Osborn's current condition and the ideas for its repurposing, and the still-outstanding question of what to do with the Hyatt's right of first refusal.

[thelakelander]

To me Bay Street should be a strip of bars and restaurants. On each side.

Convention Center a better fit for the Sports Complex. Not squeezed onto a small amount of land.

An exhibition hall would be on the second or third floor. There's no reason the ground floor can't be retail, dining and entertainment. In fact, it should be required.

[thelakelander]

Except it's not vacant. And making it so costs about as much as a convention center before you've even started building the thing.

Which brings us back around to the original issues of the Prime Osborn's current condition and the ideas for its repurposing, and the still-outstanding question of what to do with the Hyatt's right of first refusal.

Those are real problems that every other potential site fails to address. It's something that validates why a downtown master plan is needed.

[landfall]

There's no energy in DT Jax. It's all fine and well having a 10k residents target but what is there after hours to encourage a late 20s early 30s something to move there apart from "just because"?

Where do you go for after work drinks? Where do you take a friend from out of town? Wheres the hub of nightlife?

Bay Street has the bones. It's not complicated. You could plant buildings that look like they'd be more fit for a suburban strip mall on the old courthouse site and they would considerably add to the vibrancy around there.

That Hyatt first refusal plot will still be grass in 5 years possibly 10 IMO.

[thelakelander]

There's no energy in DT Jax. It's all fine and well having a 10k residents target but what is there after hours to encourage a late 20s early 30s something to move there apart from "just because"?

This would be the exact reason to cluster what you already have. Doing so would make existing businesses stronger and that would create a market where additional infill makes sense. We already have conventions and conferences. People are already coming into town. Staying status quo and not improving what we already have, simply runs the existing captive audience away. It's not a good way to build vibrancy but its what Jax has been doing with its downtown for decades.

Where do you go for after work drinks? Where do you take a friend from out of town? Wheres the hub of nightlife?

There are places and it would be great to have more. However, if we're not going to do the things to better support what we already have, we can forget about adding to them.

That Hyatt first refusal plot will still be grass in 5 years possibly 10 IMO.

I agree with you here and it's unfortunate. The same goes for most of the city owned parcels.

[jaxoNOLE]

There's no energy in DT Jax. It's all fine and well having a 10k residents target but what is there after hours to encourage a late 20s early 30s something to move there apart from "just because"?

This would be the exact reason to cluster what you already have.

Bingo. As a 30s-something who lives in Arlington, there's enough going on downtown to draw us across the river for a night out. The problem is, our favorite spots are blocks apart. We have to make decisions about how we're going to get from A to B and feel safe doing so.

Downtown Jax is analogous to lighting a charcoal grill one briquette at a time. By the time you get your next piece placed, lit, and ready to cook, the first one you put on is halfway spent. Each piece may burn just fine, but no single one is going to cook a meal. Far easier to put all your briquettes in a pile and dump your lighter fluid on that one spot. Once that fire is going good and strong, it's far easier to add new briquettes; and wouldn't you know, they'll light themselves just by being near a good fire!

[marcuscnelson]

I just had a very interesting conversation with Lori Boyer, and I took the time to ask about this whole issue.

For starters, DIA is fully behind the jail site being the future convention center. Literally anyone you ask points out that it's the jail site.

Boyer's argument is that once the Shipyards, Berkman replacement, Hardwick, and Riverfront Plaza projects are built, amongst others, land values will be pushed high enough in that part of downtown that a developer will pay enough money in order to build a hotel adjacent to the proposed convention center that will ultimately pay for a substantial portion of the cost of moving the jail, especially because public support continues to build for prioritizing the move. The expectation is that even accounting for incentives to build the hotel, the overall long-term return on investment will be "greater than one."

I asked about the right of first refusal, and her response was that because of the increased land value, by the time a project arrives that triggers the right, the cost of business will be high enough to demand that Hyatt would have to build a substantial project on the land, at which point it doesn't matter to DIA whether they act on their right or not. Her concern was moreso that prices would stay cheap enough in the short term that Hyatt could get away with buying the land and doing nothing with it. Besides, the city can use it for civic uses like a farmer's market or something else in the meantime until prices get high.

I followed up by asking if she was concerned that the market might turn the wrong way before that happens, and she said that she's more concerned about inflation than anything else as far as that goes. She cited the Southbank condos pre-recession that were finished, so as long as the surrounding projects are under construction before the economy crashes they'll likely finish and just fill slowly, which means everything should still ultimately work.

So apparently that's the plan.

[Steve]

Boyer's argument is that once the Shipyards, Berkman replacement, Hardwick, and Riverfront Plaza projects are built, amongst others, land values will be pushed high enough in that part of downtown that a developer will pay enough money in order to build a hotel adjacent to the proposed convention center that will ultimately pay for a substantial portion of the cost of moving the jail, especially because public support continues to build for prioritizing the move. The expectation is that even accounting for incentives to build the hotel, the overall long-term return on investment will be "greater than one."

Respectfully, I think someone math'ed wrong there.

In today's dollars we've heard that the estimate for moving the Jail would be $400 Million. Not sure if that's the Jail only or also the relocation of the JSO Headquarters. Regardless, maybe we have a different definition of, "substantial portion". Let's just say for a second than in 5 years that the Shipyards, Berkman, Hardwick and the Landing site are all fully redeveloped into good uses (which is a total pipe dream). Even if that happens, we think someone will buy the Police Memorial Building and Jail Site for something resembling $250 Million (north of 50% is what I would consider Substantial)?

So, let's just walk this further. Say all of this happens. These people are now into this site for $250M and they are the proud owners of a Jail and a Police Headquarters. We're going to build a convention center with an anchor hotel (putting aside the 963-room hotel two blocks away) that I'm guessing would cost - conservatively - $300 Million minimum (assuming zero inflation when this all happens)?

Oh. Let me get right behind this plan.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ Maybe they will put a casino there...it will solve all the world's problems, save downtown and pay for all our sins.  Just like attracting an NFL franchise was supposed to do.  Haha.

Jax, always looking for the magic bullet.... no patience for anything else.

[thelakelander]

The jail site theory is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. It's a pipe dream to think 1/2 of these projects are completed in 10 years, much less 5. So in other words, maybe we'll address the convention center situation around 2040. That's unacceptable to leave so many key sites in limbo that long. My honest guess is that the DIA priorities will change we'll before that. They'll change as soon as Boyer or Curry are gone. Anything 3 or 4 years out is pretty unpredictable at this point. This includes a good chunk of the projects listed.

[thelakelander]

I followed up by asking if she was concerned that the market might turn the wrong way before that happens, and she said that she's more concerned about inflation than anything else as far as that goes. She cited the Southbank condos pre-recession that were finished, so as long as the surrounding projects are under construction before the economy crashes they'll likely finish and just fill slowly, which means everything should still ultimately work.

So apparently that's the plan.

I forgot to ask......was a timeline provided for this plan that's just as realistic as one of us finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow? Juvember of what year?