Rethinking Jacksonville’s convention center dilemma

[thelakelander]

A new convention center has been in Jacksonville's long term plans for decades, but the Downtown Investment Authority now says it could be another 10 years before the city is ready for the type of major center it has typically explored. However, if we rethink our expectations and build upon the existing assets of the Downtown Hyatt, Jacksonville could have a convention center that would fulfill our current needs without breaking the bank.

Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/rethinking-jacksonvilles-convention-center-dilemma/

[Steve]

I'm struggling with this one. Normally I'm completely aligned with your feelings, but this one I honestly see both sides. With both lots, you could get close to a 250k building there so that in my eyes was a no brainer. But, if we're talking 100k, then I'm having a harder time getting excited. We're at about 80k now with the Prime Osborne.

I think about some of the conferences I attend and with the exception of the super small ones, none would fit in 100k. Now the big ones we realistically aren't candidates for anyway - there are 2-3 I attend every year that are in Atlanta/Chicago/New York primarily for the availability of a lot of international flights. Those wouldn't be our target regardless. On the other hand, there's a lot in the 200k range that I do think we'd be candidates for. A few of my conferences require vendors to bring large stuff so the number of people doesn't always match the size of the space.

Now, unquestionably for out-of-town folks this locale would be MUCH better and it would financially sustain the Hyatt for sure. I'd also add that for a 200k SqFt show, many conferences would need more hotel space than the Hyatt and (now Marriott Downtown) offer (about 1,250 rooms combined).

I mean there's the option of going up for more exhibition space, but outside of New York I'm not sure I've seen one of those actually work. Chicago's exhibit halls at Mccormick are one level (though a couple buildings are separate).

I guess the question is - would it make sense to build something that's 100k SqFt which serves us now but couldn't reasonably be expanded? Perhaps then you look at a building that could be repurposed if we reasonably grow the convention business. By that point my guess is the Police Memorial Building/Jail will ACTUALLY be at end of life (versus now) and that site offers a LOT of possibilities (you could get probably 450k-525k Square Feet there.....but for a LOT of money and now it's not (easily) attached to the convention Center hotel.

Boyer's idea for the Hyatt Garage/Landing Lot site isn't great for a few reasons, but you could get a 200k SqFt building if you removed the Newnan Street Ramp (which isn't really needed). It also has the benefit of being able to be attached to the Hyatt. Obviously replacing the parking for the Hyatt isn't free so that's an added expense. You could also make the same argument about expandability with 200k, but in theory that should get you longer.

[jaxlongtimer]

I get the appeal of a convention center connected to the Hyatt.  That said, I don't see the area having much of what else is required other than the hotel and some bare bones bars and/or restaurants.

First and foremost, I think any center, no matter its initial size, needs to be expandable.  Nothing is more expensive than to have to repeatedly move or start over every 20 years or so.  Hopefully, as our city population grows and its "natural" assets such as weather, location, river, beaches, etc. become better known and appreciated, we grow the size of conventions picking Jax  (I might add that as the world, US, and Florida populations grow, convention sizes tend to grow with them).  Given that a center should be good for 30 to 50+ years, it is reasonably prudent to plan for the future possibility of expansion.

Second, convention centers may require a good bit of large truck access.  I have seen multiple large trucks at the T-U center just to stage a Broadway show.  A convention center would have much more of this traffic and access.

Third, I don't see Jax having adequate mass transit anytime soon to replace dependence by attendees on auto parking.  Parking 1,000 to 2,000 or more cars near the Hyatt is clearly not feasible.  Heck, based on my experience, the Hyatt doesn't even have nearly enough parking for events currently there.

While I am no fan of Khan's inside track with the City, I do agree with him that a convention center at the sports complex makes the most sense.  This area would provide plenty of parking and room to expand.  If Khan ever builds his 4 Seasons and/or Lot J and/or redevelops the stadium area, an entertainment/restaurant mix could grow in that area.  Yes, it is a mile west of the Downtown core, but let's face it, Jax is clearly not prepared to leverage a convention center in the core.  It is more likely to grow the core toward the sports district (a la Brooklyn and the Southbank) based on our history than build up the core which we have been unable to do for over 50 years now.

Which brings up my fourth thought:  A convention center at the sports complex could have synergies with the other facilities already in the area:  arena, ball grounds, TIAA, Metro Park, Dailys, future use of the fairgrounds, etc.

No solution is likely perfect.  It comes down to best fit.  We can all agree, the current facility doesn't cut it and never will.

[marcuscnelson]

Based on these arguments... why wouldn't we just expand the Prime Osborn then? If the focus is supposed to be on expandability and truck access and available car parking, you might as well simply take out a wall and double/triple the size of the exhibition space, add additional meeting rooms (perhaps a new ballroom to make the original waiting room available for rail service) and deck over the parking lot. You can subsidize a hotel on the nearby empty lots (or even just on-property) and incentivize restaurants to fill it as LaVilla grows.

Re: Sports Complex, that idea seems to have died as part of the rendering evolution. Last I checked it would have gone where the apartments/medical center near Four Seasons and MOSH are now going. I suppose you could put it on Lot J but it sounds like we're getting a rehash of the last plan, and unless we squeeze it in with the eventual Fairgrounds Casino that doesn't appear to be an option either.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ I wrote off the existing convention center for several reasons.  First, was the desire to convert it back into an active transportation terminal.  Second, it is more isolated/limited than the sports complex from any surrounding entertainment/restaurant possibilities.  Third, to expand it might take a major redesign of the floor plan to the north (i.e. dealing with the foyer).  Fourth, limited room for the necessary number of parking spaces.  Fifth, I just think if you go there, its easier to start over with the sports complex.

If a casino goes to the fairgrounds, I would look for the convention center to built as part of that project.  Some of the casinos in Las Vegas have giant convention centers attached so there seems to be some synergy there.

And, I would never call any possibility in this town totally "dead" until it isn't .

[thelakelander]

I get the appeal of a convention center connected to the Hyatt.  That said, I don't see the area having much of what else is required other than the hotel and some bare bones bars and/or restaurants.

First and foremost, I think any center, no matter its initial size, needs to be expandable.  Nothing is more expensive than to have to repeatedly move or start over every 20 years or so.  Hopefully, as our city population grows and its "natural" assets such as weather, location, river, beaches, etc. become better known and appreciated, we grow the size of conventions picking Jax  (I might add that as the world, US, and Florida populations grow, convention sizes tend to grow with them).  Given that a center should be good for 30 to 50+ years, it is reasonably prudent to plan for the future possibility of expansion.

I think first and foremost, we need to consider implementation timeline with these potential projects. We've been talking about expanding or moving from the Prime Osborn for +20 years. We're no closer today than we were then, so it will be at least a +30 years of talk while working with a 78k square foot exhibition hall and outdated center in what should be a train station. Not doing anything simply leaves multiple high profile downtown sites in continued limbo for years to come. Build a larger hall than what you have now in a better location for a fraction of the timeline and cost that it will take to make something that Jax won't be able to support 30 years from now. By the time we get to a point of a need to expand, most of us here will be dead and it will be time to retrofit the Hyatt space altogether anyway.

Second, convention centers may require a good bit of large truck access.  I have seen multiple large trucks at the T-U center just to stage a Broadway show.  A convention center would have much more of this traffic and access.

Historically, East Bay was industrial. It has pretty good access already. Consider Maxwell House, which generates more truck traffic than any convention of Jax's dreams would. If it can survive and prosper there for more than a century, the old city hall annex site shouldn't be a problem.

Third, I don't see Jax having adequate mass transit anytime soon to replace dependence by attendees on auto parking.  Parking 1,000 to 2,000 or more cars near the Hyatt is clearly not feasible.  Heck, based on my experience, the Hyatt doesn't even have nearly enough parking for events currently there.

You could incorporate additional parking into the new structure, since it would have to be multiple levels anyway. Other than that, I'd argue that we have more than enough parking in downtown. Much of it is just underutilized. I've gone to more events at the Hyatt than I can count over the last 18 years. Personally, I've never had an issue parking there or anywhere else in downtown. Even during Super Bowl week, I was able to park near most places I went.

While I am no fan of Khan's inside track with the City, I do agree with him that a convention center at the sports complex makes the most sense.  This area would provide plenty of parking and room to expand.  If Khan ever builds his 4 Seasons and/or Lot J and/or redevelops the stadium area, an entertainment/restaurant mix could grow in that area.  Yes, it is a mile west of the Downtown core, but let's face it, Jax is clearly not prepared to leverage a convention center in the core.  It is more likely to grow the core toward the sports district (a la Brooklyn and the Southbank) based on our history than build up the core which we have been unable to do for over 50 years now.

IMO, the reality both Khan and Jax officials tend to overlook with many of the most ambitious dreams is timeline. It will be another 20 to 30 years before an oversized convention center is built in downtown Jax. It will also take that long to turn acres and acres of surface parking lots into development and an environment that can support it. It's almost a separate conversation from what's needed now, when timeline, finances and reality are seriously considered.

Which brings up my fourth thought:  A convention center at the sports complex could have synergies with the other facilities already in the area:  arena, ball grounds, TIAA, Metro Park, Dailys, future use of the fairgrounds, etc.

No solution is likely perfect.  It comes down to best fit.  We can all agree, the current facility doesn't cut it and never will.

I'd fall on the line of saying a phased approach is perfect. Otherwise, another 30 years of the same will be our future. To me, leaving several downtown sites in limbo for years, waiting to hit a grand slam is equivalent of striking out altogether.

[thelakelander]

^ I wrote off the existing convention center for several reasons.  First, was the desire to convert it back into an active transportation terminal.  Second, it is more isolated/limited than the sports complex from any surrounding entertainment/restaurant possibilities.  Third, to expand it might take a major redesign of the floor plan to the north (i.e. dealing with the foyer).  Fourth, limited room for the necessary number of parking spaces.  Fifth, I just think if you go there, its easier to start over with the sports complex.

Based off our past, how many years would you guess it would take to start over with the sports complex?

If a casino goes to the fairgrounds, I would look for the convention center to built as part of that project.  Some of the casinos in Las Vegas have giant convention centers attached so there seems to be some synergy there.

That's a big IF! +20 years have passed since the initial attempts to develop anything on the shipyards. That site is still empty today. Nearly a decade has passed since Khan's initial round of riverfront renderings. Still nothing there today. Break ground on Four Seasons tomorrow and we're still probably 3 or 4 years away from enjoying a glass of overpriced beer at the bar. The way things move from a timeline perspective, I'd wager Marcusnelson will be a granddad before a casino with a giant Las Vegas style convention opens on a small fairgrounds site. By that time, the Hyatt will be eligible to added as a local historic landmark.

[jaxlongtimer]

Ennis, I sense your frustration with this project  !

As to size, any size can be built. I didn't specify a size.  If built for expansion, no matter the location, it can be phased.  The Hyatt area doesn't have a monopoly on that.

The same with a timeline.  I don't see the City having its act together any more for one location than another at this point. Based on history, as you note, no matter what, it will take "forever" to get something out of the ground.  Notably, the City not only isn't pursuing this project presently (i.e. no existing momentum to push it forward anytime soon), but it also has no idea what it wants (aside from where and when).  As such, it is also not budgeted so no obvious funding source has been identified for the undetermined costs.  In other words, no matter your suggestion, mine or others, this project is years away regardless.  Pile on more frustration!

[thelakelander]

Yes, totally frustrated with the snail's pace of projects and properties where the city has control. They literally prohibit the type of time efficient revitalization you've seen in most communities the last two decades. Embracing the concept of the 3C's when the market is hot has proven successful time and time again globally, so solutions are pretty simple.

With that said, you do have a few things with the Hyatt that no other site have before within the next generation. They include a centralized location, a cluster of existing entertainment and dining uses with walking distance, nearly 1,000 hotel rooms, existing meeting space and a property that has first right of refusal on the city hall annex site. Taxpayers are also +$20 million in on subsidizing it to be there.

Most importantly, there is no market for a Vegas sized convention center in Jax and there won't be one in the future either.  Spending money on one would be a huge waste of public resources anywhere in Jax.

By far, improving what you already have is the most cost and time  effective solution to an issue that sets off a series of moves across DT that lead to short term vibrancy. With a new administration coming in soon, it's also something that could change quickly priority wise (i.e. Jax Landing's renovation plan when Curry was elected).

[jaxoNOLE]

Assuming the Carter plan for the Ford on Bay gets built, what real options exist for the annex site outside of a convention space? The Spandrel debacle sure sent the message the Hyatt won't tolerate generic infill there.

IMO, the opportunity cost of leaving that hole in Bay Street should factor in to any convention center plans, even if it's not directly pertinent to the convention center feasibility on paper. But I suppose that's dangerously close to master planning.

[Steve]

Assuming the Carter plan for the Ford on Bay gets built, what real options exist for the annex site outside of a convention space? The Spandrel debacle sure sent the message the Hyatt won't tolerate generic infill there.

IMO, the opportunity cost of leaving that hole in Bay Street should factor in to any convention center plans, even it's not directly pertinent to the convention center feasibility on paper. But I suppose that's dangerously close to master planning.

This is why I thought the Spandrel-selected RFP was stupid. It's like the city thought they could just convince the Hyatt ownership to just give up their first right. That's their value-without a convention center, the property is a bit of an albatross-very oversized for this market.

Right now there are only two options for an attached center-behind the building and on the current parking garage/old Landing lot. Now, of course you have to have hotel parking somewhere-perhaps that's on the City Hall site (properly designed and ideally more than just parking/retail).

[thelakelander]

Assuming the Carter plan for the Ford on Bay gets built, what real options exist for the annex site outside of a convention space? The Spandrel debacle sure sent the message the Hyatt won't tolerate generic infill there.

The site basically sits underutilized and in limbo for years to come. By not resolving one elephant in the room, we also keep another prime site like the old train station in LaVilla in limbo and also underutilized for years to come. People are definitely used to this with downtown Jacksonville but it doesn't have to be this way. Everyone loses in a situation where we refuse to properly activate our key city owned properties during one of the longest urban revitalization boom periods in American history.

IMO, the opportunity cost of leaving that hole in Bay Street should factor in to any convention center plans, even it's not directly pertinent to the convention center feasibility on paper. But I suppose that's dangerously close to master planning.

Master planning?! How dare you! You said a very nasty word!

[vicupstate]

This is one of my biggest complaints about JAX. There is no PLAN. No master plan in regards to a convention center or pretty much everything else. 

Decide where the CC is going, how much acreage will be devoted to that, where will the parking go, etc. Even if it won't be built now, set the land aside and declare that the plan. Now decide what to do with the Prime Osborn, assuming it is not the future CC site.

I am with Lakelander on this, PROVIDED the Ford at Bay site is NOT developed and can be devoted to future expansion and ancillary uses. Steve is right on that, IMO.  The Hyatt will ALWAYS be the biggest hotel in DT and it was built with conventions in mind. But cutting it off from expansion is a deal-breaker in my book. Put 'The Hardwick' on the site of the Berkman 2 or adjacent to it instead of the Ford at Bay site.   

As for the Sports district, the last site plans I saw had a building/spot that looked very much like a convention center, it just wasn't in the first phase.  My guess is the city will simply keep kicking the can down the road until Khan's Four Seasons, etc. plans are reality, and the case for putting the CC there is even stronger than it is today. I think this is exactly why Boyer said what she said.   

[CityLife]

I get the appeal of a convention center connected to the Hyatt.  That said, I don't see the area having much of what else is required other than the hotel and some bare bones bars and/or restaurants.

First and foremost, I think any center, no matter its initial size, needs to be expandable.  Nothing is more expensive than to have to repeatedly move or start over every 20 years or so.  Hopefully, as our city population grows and its "natural" assets such as weather, location, river, beaches, etc. become better known and appreciated, we grow the size of conventions picking Jax  (I might add that as the world, US, and Florida populations grow, convention sizes tend to grow with them).  Given that a center should be good for 30 to 50+ years, it is reasonably prudent to plan for the future possibility of expansion.

I think first and foremost, we need to consider implementation timeline with these potential projects. We've been talking about expanding or moving from the Prime Osborn for +20 years. We're no closer today than we were then, so it will be at least a +30 years of talk while working with a 78k square foot exhibition hall and outdated center in what should be a train station. Not doing anything simply leaves multiple high profile downtown sites in continued limbo for years to come. Build a larger hall than what you have now in a better location for a fraction of the timeline and cost that it will take to make something that Jax won't be able to support 30 years from now. By the time we get to a point of a need to expand, most of us here will be dead and it will be time to retrofit the Hyatt space altogether anyway.

This^

Jax leaders need to think in terms of the concept of Time Value of Money (TMV). Every year you wait to solve convention center, Skyway, Shipyards, Landing, etc; the more you delay the ripple effects from completing those projects (additional redevelopment) and you have less time to recapture the initial investment.

Jax's incompetence may turn out to be a blessing in disguise though. Does anyone really think there will still be traditional conventions in 20-30 years? Does Jax even stand to gain much by a major investment in a convention center? Florida is an extremely competitive state for conventions and frankly DT Jax has less to offer convention goers than other locations in Florida. Orlando has a better airport, will soon have Brightline, has more hotels, and a ton of golf nearby. Then in South Florida you have convention centers in Downtown West Palm Beach, Miami Beach, The Diplomat (on the ocean) in Hollywood, and oh by the way Broward County is spending 1 BILLION DOLLARS to expand their existing convention center. It's five minutes from the FTL airport, is next to their huge cruise terminal, and is only a mile from the beach. It will add a 350k exhibition hall, 65k ballroom, and 525k square feet of meeting space to the existing facility that will have 1.2 million square feet when done. Then you have Tampa's in a great location downtown with 600k square feet.

All that tells me that the obvious play is exactly what the Jaxson has suggested.

[Snaketoz]

Jacksonville is the way it is because it's the way your average, normal, everyday Jacksonville voter wants it to be.  Modern, progressive citizens are a minority in this town.  Having been born here, educated, and raised here, I know.  When young we were taught to finish school, perhaps join the military, and get a "steady job" at a paper mill, chemical plant, or military base.  You can't blame only the city council, city boards, or even the mayor for where we are.  The voters demand it.  This way of thinking is slowly fading away, but not fast enough.  We have an inferiority complex and in many ways we are.  The only way out of this jamb is to elect people to public office that will LEAD us into the 21st century.  Most people my age think the way we are is perfect.  I'm glad I don't feel that way.