Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....

[Charles Hunter]

^ Thanks for the added comments.  I understand your side of the coin.  Not sure we can't emulate Europe over time though.  We copy them on so many other levels  .

Maybe one answer is to close our streets, in at least Downtown, to cars*.  Make people park on the fringes and take mass transit into and around the urban core.  This is essentially what Disney does and its monorail, train and ferry boats are great examples of how much people love mass transit when there is no competition for it. If I were "God" over city planning, I would seriously look at this.  Clearly, I am not and I understand the resistance one could expect to implementing it.  But, I also can imagine the resistance when someone says we can expand the heretofore boondoggle riderless Skyway for $1 billion +++.  So, maybe we are stuck with the status quo for the rest of our life spans and future generations will have to resolve this issue.  Wonder if the Skyway's concrete supports and track will hold together that long in which case one option may come off the table by default .

*Exception for emergency vehicles.  For businesses and residents, cars and delivery trucks can be permitted maybe in the off hours/middle of the night.

In tonight's episode of Back to the Future ...
This was the very concept in the 1970s that led to the People Mover and its precursor downtown circulator bus service. Parking would be at the fringes and the circulator buses (under the name "Spirit Special" with red-white-blue livery - hey, it was the Bicentennial), and eventually the people mover, would bring downtown workers and shoppers into the core.  Sadly, the power structure prevailed on the Downtown Development Authority (1970s DIA) and City Council allowed parking garages within the double belt of 1-way streets. Then suburban shopping killed the stores in the CBD, and ... well, thelakelander has told this story better than I can.

[thelakelander]

Ah.....the Downtown Master Plan of 1971!!!!


A major part of the plan was to separate vehicular and pedestrian traffic throughout the downtown core.  A new loop system was the solution recommended by RKTL.  Vehicular traffic would be routed around the heart of the Northbank and in the process, converting the core of downtown into a large pedestrian mall. The Loop system consisted of converting Water, Ocean, Beaver, and Pearl Streets into a one way outer loop, while turning Main, Ashley, Julia, and Bay Streets into the inner loop.  Parking garages and surface lots containing at least 5,000 spaces would then be constructed along the loop streets.


Even a mall in the middle of downtown to compete with the suburbs.



and a Disney-like peoplemover/monorail to serve all the people....



I went ahead and drew what was built verses what was initially proposed for the Skyway.

[jaxlongtimer]

A few comments...

(1) I am not sure how to interpret all the markings in this drawing but I gather they represent a variety of sidewalk widths with wider ones in the interior blacks and a few streets completely closed to cars.  Would have been amazing to see this plan implemented.

(2) This was conceived when the Sears store was still open downtown on what is now the Marriott block (the developer of which opposed putting a Skyway station on part of his property) and the Independent Life/Wells Fargo tower wasn't yet built plus when most department and retail stores were still hanging on downtown.  (Ironically, the multi-year construction of the Skyway managed to kill off most of the last of them.)

(3) Somewhere around this time, there was also a plan that all "new" buildings downtown had to accommodate connections to elevated crosswalks.  To this day, some of our current buildings have elevated floors that were built to accommodate this plan that was never actually implemented after all that.  A great example of why developers don't trust downtown planners to execute their promises.

(4) A Disney style monorail would likely have been far superior to the Skyway in speed, capacity, long term costs, etc.  Too bad we got what we got.  Imagine if we paid Disney to build our elevated transit instead of JTA.  A proven technology likely built for less.  Deja vu with  JTA's U2C vs. Waymo.

[jaxlongtimer]

U2C got a good working over on First Coast Connect today... many of the criticisms and observations on the Jaxson were flushed out.  Even noted that only Nat Ford and Mayor Deegan seem to be for it and everyone else against it. Left scratching heads.

Particularly poignant, they played the desperate pleas at a City Council event of a disabled citizen that uses Connexion to get to work and is looking at 5 fold increase in cost ($300+/week) to commute to her job.  They noted that JTA is losing $7 million on U2C that almost no one rides while forgoing spending $6 million to keep Connexion affordable for the lifeline it provides to so many more people.  Again, left scratching heads.

[Jdog]

Good info. 

I got 2 questions if you all can indulge. 

1. Will bringing the guideway infrastructure to the ground require possible flyovers to be built?  It hit me while in a skyway station the other day that the bi-directional elevated guideways are right next to each other on the same side of the street, and I think that some streets themselves below could be one way or two way. Hope that makes sense. Could having AV vehicles going from the grade separated elevated guideways to shared traffic lanes below even possibly require additional signalization and programming?

2. Considering all the effort, research, technology to run in mixed traffic, costs of bringing guideways to the ground, would the cost of extending the elevated guideways (no center beams only needed just the shell) be considered too high?  Running the Holon up there cheaper and easier than in mixed traffic, right?

Cheers

[marcuscnelson]

1. Will bringing the guideway infrastructure to the ground require possible flyovers to be built?  It hit me while in a skyway station the other day that the bi-directional elevated guideways are right next to each other on the same side of the street, and I think that some streets themselves below could be one way or two way. Hope that makes sense. Could having AV vehicles going from the grade separated elevated guideways to shared traffic lanes below even possibly require additional signalization and programming?

In theory it could be either a ramp from the Skyway level to street level or an elevator of some kind, but that hasn't been finalized yet. That would require some sort of signalization to then join traffic.

2. Considering all the effort, research, technology to run in mixed traffic, costs of bringing guideways to the ground, would the cost of extending the elevated guideways (no center beams only needed just the shell) be considered too high?  Running the Holon up there cheaper and easier than in mixed traffic, right?

The Holon is much lower to the ground than the Skyway is from the bottom of the guideway structure, so a major driver of cost is for essentially partly demolishing the guideway in order to reconstruct it high enough so that if a shuttle arrives at a station, it is at the right level for people to get on and off. In theory the Transit Concept & Alternatives Review from 2020 or so suggests that some portions of the U2C extensions would entail short elevated spurs from the guideway (such as to reach Baptist Anderson) rather than going down to grade but it's unclear what the status is of those at this point.

JTA has long placed a heavy emphasis on the idea that elevated guideway expansion is simply too complex and intrusive, and while that isn't entirely without merit, their decision-making in that context has led them down a disastrous path.

[marcuscnelson]

In related news: JTA VP of Automation & Innovation Kiet Dinh has left the authority to be Emerging Technologies Senior Manager at AECOM, after just over two years on the job.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/kietdinh_grateful-to-share-some-exciting-news-ive-activity-7417201538592382976-Wvpp

It appears JTA already had a listing for a replacement (now an Assistant Vice President) on LinkedIn over the past few weeks, so we'll probably learn who will now have to take over the program eventually.

[Ken_FSU]

U2C got a good working over on First Coast Connect today... many of the criticisms and observations on the Jaxson were flushed out.  Even noted that only Nat Ford and Mayor Deegan seem to be for it and everyone else against it. Left scratching heads.

Particularly poignant, they played the desperate pleas at a City Council event of a disabled citizen that uses Connexion to get to work and is looking at 5 fold increase in cost ($300+/week) to commute to her job.  They noted that JTA is losing $7 million on U2C that almost no one rides while forgoing spending $6 million to keep Connexion affordable for the lifeline it provides to so many more people.  Again, left scratching heads.

Wild day when Rory is the voice of reason.



Nat Ford's response:

Extend NAVI to the BeAcHes~!

https://jaxtoday.org/2026/01/21/navi-autonomous-shuttles-beaches/

[CityLife]

[marcuscnelson]

On a related note, JTA held their 2026 State of The Authority yesterday, where this mention of expanding U2C to the Beaches was made.

They are also holding their board meeting today:

https://www.jtafla.com/about-us/leadership/board-of-directors/jta-board-meetings/board-work-session-january-22-2026/

[Charles Hunter]

From the Jax Business Journal article about the State of the Authority presentation: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2026/01/21/jta-ceo-expresses-optimism-as-feds-lay-out-policie.html?ana=e_JA_me&j=43678766&senddate=2026-01-22&empos=p7

Mauricio La Plante
By Mauricio La Plante – Reporter, Jacksonville Business Journal
Jan 21, 2026

Listen to this article 3 min
Story Highlights

    Federal government plans major autonomous vehicle funding and policy support.
    Jacksonville Transportation Authority expects grants for Ultimate Urban Circular shuttle system.
    Trump administration accelerated autonomous vehicle deployment throughout 2025.

As the Jacksonville Transportation Authority and the city pour millions of public dollars into autonomous transit, JTA's CEO said to expect a major boost from the federal government Wednesday.

During JTA's 2026 State of the Authority event, CEO Nat Ford said federal leaders are taking steps to build policies and grant programs around autonomous vehicle development.
...
Mauricio La Plante
By Mauricio La Plante – Reporter, Jacksonville Business Journal
Jan 21, 2026

Listen to this article 3 min
Story Highlights

    Federal government plans major autonomous vehicle funding and policy support.
    Jacksonville Transportation Authority expects grants for Ultimate Urban Circular shuttle system.
    Trump administration accelerated autonomous vehicle deployment throughout 2025.

As the Jacksonville Transportation Authority and the city pour millions of public dollars into autonomous transit, JTA's CEO said to expect a major boost from the federal government Wednesday.

During JTA's 2026 State of the Authority event, CEO Nat Ford said federal leaders are taking steps to build policies and grant programs around autonomous vehicle development.

The embrace of AVs is poised to provide significant support for projects in Jacksonville, as JTA partners with several companies to develop the Ultimate Urban Circular – its AV shuttle system – and as the city incentivizes manufacturer Holon to build an AV production facility in the Northside.

Ford told the Business Journal that programs in the works by lawmakers and transportation regulators should have a "good amount" of money earmarked for autonomous vehicles.

"There is policy that's being crafted and actually a foundational part of it is a framework on how autonomous vehicles will be operated and governed as it relates to the Federal Highway Administration," "So there's also discussions and development of a funding program, a grant program [1] that will be heavily laden with autonomous vehicle technology as part of that."

With partners at the federal and state level, Ford said JTA is well-positioned to receive support.
...
Rep. Bob Latta (R-Ohio) and Rep. Debbie Dingel (D-Michigan) drafted the Safely Ensuring Lives Future Deployment and Research in Vehicle Evolution Act of 2026 (the SELF DRIVE Act) to establish regulations around autonomous vehicle technology.

Additionally, Ford, during an address for the State of the Authority event, pointed out that the Administration of President Donald Trump has also embraced AVs.

"In the last few weeks, the federal government publicly announced that they're going all in as it relates to autonomous vehicles," Ford said in his speech. "The administration has made it a priority to accelerate commercial development of this mobility solution."
...
Secretary of Transportation Sean Duffy unveiled a new AV framework under the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

The NHTSA also spread its automated vehicle exemption program to domestically-produced vehicles in April.[2]

1. Will FDOT come up with its usual contribution, splitting the non-Federal share with the local government?
2. Does this mean the Holons will be street-legal? See discussion of the bill, below.

Three articles. The first is from a Tesla fan site, and speaks glowingly of the bill. The second is from an insurance trade publication, and they don't like the bill. The third, from a government-tracking website is an unbiased summary.

Tesla supportive site

The narrative has shifted from Safety vs Innovation to US vs China. Lawmakers expressed palpable fear that stalling on autonomous vehicle legislation would cede the future of the auto industry to Chinese state-backed competitors that are already aggressively deploying robotaxis.

With the hearing concluded, the bill moves forward to a markup session where the final language will be polished, followed by a floor vote expected later this year. Given the bipartisan support shown today and the urgency of the China threat, the path to passage looks smoother than it ever has.

For Tesla, this is a sign to spin up its motors. The legislative wall is coming down, and the road for Cybercab and true autonomy is finally opening up.
https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/3508/congress-ready-to-pass-federal-autonomous-vehicle-regulations

Insurance

However, the trade associations are wary of language that may infringe on state insurance requirements or the use of data by some third parties, including insurers.

The American Property Casualty Insurance Association (APCIA) told the subcommittee it opposes the bill's passage "as currently written" because some language in the SELF DRIVE Act preempts state laws. The National Association of Mutual Insurance Companies (NAMIC) said it is hopeful to work with the bill's sponsors to avoid potential conflict.

"While the bill makes no direct references to insurance, we are very concerned with the vague and broad nature" of a certain section within the measure that would prohibit "any law, rule, regulation, requirement, standard, or other provision" that limits automated driving systems so long as the manufacturer satisfies other safety provisions.
...
While it supports the protection of rights protecting cybersecurity, privacy, and intellectual property, APCIA said these goals "must be balanced with equally important goals of safety and the insurability of changing risk profiles presented by the technology. Third parties (insurers), need access to vehicle data to meet these goals."
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2026/01/16/854682.htm

Analysis - Note this analysis of the original bill that passed the House in 2017, but did not pass the Senate. According to other articles, this bill is being used as the basis for the proposed new legislation.

What the bill does

The SELF DRIVE Act would:

    Block states from banning self-driving vehicles. (No state has yet banned the vehicles outright, although individual legislators in some states have proposed such measures.)
    Grant exemptions to existing safety standards for a company's first 100,000 vehicles, in an effort to speed up their production into the market. If this remains in the bill that is approved, it appears that it would give Holon a free pass on safety.
    Require manufacturers to develop plans to thwart cyberattacks on the digitally-run vehicles. You wouldn't want a hacker gaining access and controlling your car remotely while you're in it.

The acronym is short for the Safely Ensuring Lives Future Deployment and Research In Vehicle Evolution Act.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/115/hr3388/summary

[thelakelander]

Wow. Talk about being tone death. Does JTA have a public relations or communications department? Who is giving Mr. Ford his talking points?!

U2C got a good working over on First Coast Connect today... many of the criticisms and observations on the Jaxson were flushed out.  Even noted that only Nat Ford and Mayor Deegan seem to be for it and everyone else against it. Left scratching heads.

Particularly poignant, they played the desperate pleas at a City Council event of a disabled citizen that uses Connexion to get to work and is looking at 5 fold increase in cost ($300+/week) to commute to her job.  They noted that JTA is losing $7 million on U2C that almost no one rides while forgoing spending $6 million to keep Connexion affordable for the lifeline it provides to so many more people.  Again, left scratching heads.

Wild day when Rory is the voice of reason.



Nat Ford's response:

Extend NAVI to the BeAcHes~!

https://jaxtoday.org/2026/01/21/navi-autonomous-shuttles-beaches/

[Charles Hunter]

Today, JTA voted to delay voting on the Connexion price increase.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2026/01/22/jta-delays-vote-to-increase-connexion-plus-fare-after-pushback/

The Jacksonville Transit Authority delayed a vote to increase the fare for the Connexion Plus service that supports people with disabilities after community pushback.

The vote will be delayed until April.

People who rely on the service packed Thursday's JTA board meeting to express their concerns about the price hike and how it would affect their livelihood.

[jaxlongtimer]

Wow. Talk about being tone death. Does JTA have a public relations or communications department? Who is giving Mr. Ford his talking points?!

U2C got a good working over on First Coast Connect today... many of the criticisms and observations on the Jaxson were flushed out.  Even noted that only Nat Ford and Mayor Deegan seem to be for it and everyone else against it. Left scratching heads.

Particularly poignant, they played the desperate pleas at a City Council event of a disabled citizen that uses Connexion to get to work and is looking at 5 fold increase in cost ($300+/week) to commute to her job.  They noted that JTA is losing $7 million on U2C that almost no one rides while forgoing spending $6 million to keep Connexion affordable for the lifeline it provides to so many more people.  Again, left scratching heads.

Wild day when Rory is the voice of reason.



Nat Ford's response:

Extend NAVI to the BeAcHes~!

https://jaxtoday.org/2026/01/21/navi-autonomous-shuttles-beaches/

Note this endorsement that Ford pulled out at the meeting:

K. Jane Williams, a former Federal Transit Administration administrator, praised the U2C project during Wednesday's State of the Authority presentation.

As a FORMER official, was she appearing as a PAID consultant/mouthpiece?  Really, this is unbiased?  I don't see any quotes from CURRENT FTA officials!

...As the Jacksonville Transportation Authority and the city pour millions of public dollars into autonomous transit, JTA's CEO said to expect a major boost from the federal government Wednesday.

During JTA's 2026 State of the Authority event, CEO Nat Ford said federal leaders are taking steps to build policies and grant programs around autonomous vehicle development. (That's all kinds of AV's, not necessarily U2C)

The embrace of AVs is poised to provide significant support for projects in Jacksonville (Says who besides JTA?), as JTA partners with several companies to develop the Ultimate Urban Circular – its AV shuttle system – and as the city incentivizes manufacturer Holon to build an AV production facility in the Northside.

Ford told the Business Journal that programs in the works by lawmakers and transportation regulators should have a "good amount" of money earmarked for autonomous vehicles. (Again, that's all kinds of AV's, not necessarily U2C)

"There is policy that's being crafted and actually a foundational part of it is a framework on how autonomous vehicles will be operated and governed as it relates to the Federal Highway Administration," "So there's also discussions and development of a funding program, a grant program [1] that will be heavily laden with autonomous vehicle technology as part of that." (Once again, all kinds of AV's, not specifically U2C.)

With partners at the federal and state level, Ford said JTA is well-positioned to receive support. (Any specifics?  Where are these partnerships profiled?  Wishful thinking?)
...
Rep. Bob Latta (R-Ohio) and Rep. Debbie Dingel (D-Michigan) drafted the Safely Ensuring Lives Future Deployment and Research in Vehicle Evolution Act of 2026 (the SELF DRIVE Act) to establish regulations around autonomous vehicle technology. (Likely to highlight how far the NAVI/Holon/U2C project has to go to meet any such standards.  Have at it!)

Additionally, Ford, during an address for the State of the Authority event, pointed out that the Administration of President Donald Trump has also embraced AVs. (Along with beautiful women, Proud Boys and self enrichment schemes! LOL, JTA surely has a reliable partner there!)

"In the last few weeks, the federal government publicly announced that they're going all in as it relates to autonomous vehicles," Ford said in his speech. "The administration has made it a priority to accelerate commercial development of this mobility solution." (Broken record: Again, all kinds of AV's, nothing specific to U2C.)
...
Secretary of Transportation Sean Duffy unveiled a new AV framework under the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. (Nothing of note here.)

The NHTSA also spread its automated vehicle exemption program to domestically-produced vehicles in April. (So, Holon gets a break from the Feds while lawyers sue it for accidents that the Fed's don't protect it from.  Holon isn't going to get ICE immunity.  Great business model.  And, what are these exemptions? How many years out do they last? They may not be meaningful in the end or applicable to U2C.  If they apply to first 100,000 vehicles, they are likely thinking of cars from the automakers, not public or fake "mass" transit vehicles that would be a long time coming to hit such numbers.)

To summarize, as to the Fed's supporting AV's, there is nothing here that is specific to what JTA is doing.  Rather, these are broad statements addressing the AV industry at large.  The Fed's may be addressing AV's of all kinds including individually owned AV's, Waymo, Uber, the automakers, etc.  Why does Ford think the Feds will rain dollars on his parade?  Read between the lines!  These are nothing more than vacuous statements with no meat in them to create an image of hope by association.

[thelakelander]

Yeah, none of it is really U2C specific. Everything here could happen (big IF) and the FTA still ends up not giving JTA much money for this project.