Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....

[Ken_FSU]

I trust Ken.

My man!

I did see a passenger on one once. However, they had a construction vest on, so they could have been another JTA employee.

Crying at the phrase "I did see a passenger once" in relation to a $65 million transportation system.

I'll chip in $100 if a poster or posters here will ride for a full day and document how many riders are actually on it. Maybe we can pool up enough to entice someone to do it.

In for an hour. No payment necessary. Shall grab my laptop, ride for an hour next week, and count passengers. Could be a fun experiment.

[Charles Hunter]

I wonder how JTA will charge for people who stay on for one or more full circuits? For that matter, how does JTA's off-vehicle fare payment work?

[jaxlongtimer]

Based on the outcome of the below, the cost of U2C could be many times $400 million...

Tesla Autopilot plaintiffs seek $345 million in damages over fatal crash in Florida

Tesla is facing a crucial verdict in a personal injury trial over a fatal Autopilot crash in 2019, the first time Elon Musk's automaker has been in front of a jury on such a matter in federal court.

Attorneys for the plaintiffs on Thursday asked the jury to award damages of around $345 million. That includes $109 million in compensatory damages and $236 million in punitive damages. The trial in the Southern District of Florida started on July 14.

The suit centers around who shoulders the blame for a deadly crash that occurred in 2019 in Key Largo, Florida. A Tesla owner named George McGee was driving his Model S electric sedan while using the company's Enhanced Autopilot, a partially automated driving system.

While driving, McGee dropped his mobile phone that he was using and scrambled to pick it up. He said during the trial that he believed Enhanced Autopilot would brake if an obstacle was in the way. He accelerated through an intersection at just over 60 miles per hour, hitting a nearby empty parked car and its owners, who were standing on the other side of their vehicle.

Naibel Benavides, who was 22, died on the scene from injuries sustained in the crash. Her body was discovered about 75 feet away from the point of impact. Her boyfriend, Dillon Angulo, survived but suffered multiple broken bones, a traumatic brain injury and psychological effects.

The plaintiffs have included Benavides' surviving family members, and Angulo, who testified in the trial. Angulo is seeking compensation for his medical expenses and pain and suffering, while Benavides' estate is suing for wrongful death, pain and suffering, and other punitive damages.

Lawyers representing the plaintiffs argued that Tesla's partially automated driving systems, marketed as Autopilot at the time, had dangerous defects, which should have been known and fixed by the company, and that use of Autopilot should have been limited to roads where it could perform safely.

They also argued that Musk and Tesla made false statements to customers, shareholders and the public, overstating the safety benefits and capabilities of Autopilot, which encouraged drivers to overly rely on it.

In opening arguments and throughout the trial, the plaintiffs' attorneys and expert witnesses cited a litany of Musk's past promises about Autopilot and Tesla's autonomous vehicle technology. The lawyers said

Tesla attorneys countered in court that the company had communicated directly with customers about how to use Autopilot and other features, and that McGee's driving was to blame for the collision. They said in closing arguments that Tesla works to develop technology to save drivers' lives, and that a ruling against the EV maker would send the wrong message.

The Benavides family had previously sued McGee and settled with him. McGee was charged in October 2019 with careless driving and didn't contest the charges.

While Tesla has typically been able to settle cases or move Autopilot-related suits into arbitration and out of the public eye, Judge Beth Bloom in the Miami court wrote, in an order in early July, that the case could move ahead to trial.

"A reasonable jury could find that Tesla acted in reckless disregard of human life for the sake of developing their product and maximizing profit," she wrote in that order.

For closing arguments on Thursday, the Benavides family and Angulo were in the courtroom. They looked away from screens anytime a video or picture of the scene of the crash was displayed.

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/07/31/tesla-autopilot-plaintiffs-seek-345-million-over-fatal-florida-crash.html

Jury verdict today:  Tesla hit with $242.5 million judgement.  JTA beware!

Tesla must pay portion of $329 million in damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

A jury in Miami has determined that Tesla should be held partly liable for a fatal 2019 Autopilot crash, and must compensate the family of the deceased and an injured survivor a portion of $329 million in damages.

Tesla's payout is based on $129 million in compensatory damages, and $200 million in punitive damages against the company.

The jury determined Tesla should be held 33% responsible for the fatal crash. That means the automaker would be responsible for about $42.5 million in compensatory damages. In cases like these, punitive damages are typically capped at three times compensatory damages.

The plaintiffs' attorneys told CNBC on Friday that because punitive damages were only assessed against Tesla, they expect the automaker to pay the full $200 million, bringing total payments to around $242.5 million.

Tesla said it plans to appeal the decision.

Attorneys for the plaintiffs had asked the jury to award damages based on $345 million in total damages. The trial in the Southern District of Florida started on July 14.

The suit centered around who shouldered the blame for the deadly crash in Key Largo, Florida. A Tesla owner named George McGee was driving his Model S electric sedan while using the company's Enhanced Autopilot, a partially automated driving system.

While driving, McGee dropped his mobile phone that he was using and scrambled to pick it up. He said during the trial that he believed Enhanced Autopilot would brake if an obstacle was in the way. His Model S accelerated through an intersection at just over 60 miles per hour, hitting a nearby empty parked car and its owners, who were standing on the other side of their vehicle.

Naibel Benavides, who was 22, died on the scene from injuries sustained in the crash. Her body was discovered about 75 feet away from the point of impact. Her boyfriend, Dillon Angulo, survived but suffered multiple broken bones, a traumatic brain injury and psychological effects.

"Tesla designed Autopilot only for controlled access highways yet deliberately chose not to restrict drivers from using it elsewhere, alongside Elon Musk telling the world Autopilot drove better than humans," Brett Schreiber, counsel for the plaintiffs, said in an e-mailed statement on Friday. "Tesla's lies turned our roads into test tracks for their fundamentally flawed technology, putting everyday Americans like Naibel Benavides and Dillon Angulo in harm's way."...

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/08/01/tesla-must-pay-329-million-in-damages-in-fatal-autopilot-case.html

[marcuscnelson]

Lyft announced last week that they will partner with Holon's parent Benteler and plan to begin operating Holon's urban shuttles next year:

https://www.lyft.com/blog/posts/lyft-and-benteler-mobility-to-introduce-next-generation-autonomous-shuttles-across-lyft-network

So... what exactly is the point of the U2C program then? Why should JTA spend over half a billion dollars on doing this themselves (with the bus network in the state it's in) when Lyft is going to get those same exact shuttles to use on streets anyway?

[Charles Hunter]

Sounds like a great line of inquiry for the Governor's DOGE Committee when it visits Jacksonville.

Interesting that the City is subsidizing the manufacturing plant that enables Lyft to make this move.

With HOLON's new +$100M production facility in Jacksonville, Florida, and their global manufacturing capabilities, BENTELER Mobility is building infrastructure for large-scale AV deployment.

[jaxlongtimer]

The below link is a technical analysis of Tesla's misleading and obstructionist defense of its Autopilot, its failure to deactivate in a designated restricted zone (which the NHTSA had cautioned Tesla about previously), and its failure to prevent or attempt to prevent an accident Tesla claimed it would do:

https://electrek.co/2025/08/04/tesla-withheld-data-lied-misdirected-police-plaintiffs-avoid-blame-autopilot-crash/

Tesla was assigned 33% fault in an accident that killed one bystander and killed another costing it $243 million. 

Oh, the hazards of "autonomous vehicles"!  Who is paying attention?

[Jax_Developer]

Site is loading too slow to attach, but the lawsuit issue was something I highlighted years ago on this thread.

I also have previously mentioned how AV has been in the works in the Bay Area for quite some time... as far back as 2005 for sure. What people outside of the tech bubble don't understand with AV, is that for the past decade, the entire conversation has been centered around the percentage accuracy of the AV systems (getting as close to "100%" proficiency).

For at least the past 5 years, the most systems have been more capable than a human driver at about 30 MPH in non-congested traffic. The consistency drops as you go faster of course... but why have we not seen any open road applications? AV's are all over the place in closed course environments (ports, industrial centers, campuses etc.). The very simply reason is liability & it's why all these companies are so concerned with the last 0.1% of proficiency. What other company could eat a $200m+ lawsuit & not feel a scratch? Tesla & Google sure, but not a local transit agency or a startup.

In fact, the code is more difficult for groups like JTA because they likely need to code in buffers for their systems. I've spent an hour or so just watching the vans move one day & it's fairly obvious that the van has some fairly extreme response signals (hence the jerkiness everyone is mentioning).

It's unfortunently a morbid topic... but there's no way you could convince me that the worst drivers in Jacksonville are any better than modern AV technology. The difference is that there is a system (police, courts, etc.) set up so to handle those accidents. Who is really at fault when an AV slams into a bystander?

[Jax_Developer]

Lyft announced last week that they will partner with Holon's parent Benteler and plan to begin operating Holon's urban shuttles next year:

https://www.lyft.com/blog/posts/lyft-and-benteler-mobility-to-introduce-next-generation-autonomous-shuttles-across-lyft-network

So... what exactly is the point of the U2C program then? Why should JTA spend over half a billion dollars on doing this themselves (with the bus network in the state it's in) when Lyft is going to get those same exact shuttles to use on streets anyway?

This isn't all that big of a deal other than Lyft being the major power broker with Holon now. Lyft is behind the ball because of Uber/Waymo's partnership. There is of course no competitor to Waymo - other than Tesla in the AV space. Lyft, having the upper hand here with Holon, is having Benteler finance their own shuttles to use on Lyft's system. Absolutely genius because Lyft has no obligation to perform (I bet) under these circumstances.

Holon just needs to actually start their plant. They have no negotiation power. The date has been moved back more than a year now from the original timeline. As of today (8/5), they still haven't resubmitted their civil set for corrections. A typical timeline from civil site approval to a project being completed is easily 12 months. I wouldn't be surprised if this is completed in 2028 with first vehicles coming off in 2029 (if at all) to allow for them to get everything straight with Lyft. JTA will be using the Ford Vans for quite a while.

From Lyft's press release (lolz):

This builds on Lyft's strategy to be the platform of choice as more and more fleet owners, OEMs, and tech developers enter into the AV space.

[Captain Zissou]

So... what exactly is the point of the U2C program then? Why should JTA spend over half a billion dollars on doing this themselves (with the bus network in the state it's in) when Lyft is going to get those same exact shuttles to use on streets anyway?

Let me see if I can find my post from 4 years ago saying this same thing.  The plan all along should have been to be an early adopter of these technologies by facilitating one, or several, of the established players using Jax as a test market.  Free land for an operations and service center, support with route infrastructure, favorable terms for operations, reduced taxes or fees for the first couple of years.  Even sizeable grants to set up shop here would still cost a fraction of what the U2C will ultimately cost. 

[jaxlongtimer]

So... what exactly is the point of the U2C program then? Why should JTA spend over half a billion dollars on doing this themselves (with the bus network in the state it's in) when Lyft is going to get those same exact shuttles to use on streets anyway?

Let me see if I can find my post from 4 years ago saying this same thing.  The plan all along should have been to be an early adopter of these technologies by facilitating one, or several, of the established players using Jax as a test market.  Free land for an operations and service center, support with route infrastructure, favorable terms for operations, reduced taxes or fees for the first couple of years.  Even sizeable grants to set up shop here would still cost a fraction of what the U2C will ultimately cost.

Waymo is gradually adding cities to its roll out.  Right now, it appears to be going to the largest U.S. cities and/or ones that have lots of techies who may be willing early adopters (e.g. Austin).  Eventually, they will work their way down to mid-size cities like Jax.  LOL, maybe our desire to adopt "cutting edge" AV tech will bring them here sooner that not.  Regardless, when they arrive, U2C will be rendered totally moot, if it doesn't fall on its own sword before then. JTA and all the U2C supporters are going to look awful foolish at that point and that will be the least of their embarassment.

[CityLife]

So... what exactly is the point of the U2C program then? Why should JTA spend over half a billion dollars on doing this themselves (with the bus network in the state it's in) when Lyft is going to get those same exact shuttles to use on streets anyway?

Let me see if I can find my post from 4 years ago saying this same thing.  The plan all along should have been to be an early adopter of these technologies by facilitating one, or several, of the established players using Jax as a test market.  Free land for an operations and service center, support with route infrastructure, favorable terms for operations, reduced taxes or fees for the first couple of years.  Even sizeable grants to set up shop here would still cost a fraction of what the U2C will ultimately cost.

Waymo is gradually adding cities to its roll out.  Right now, it appears to be going to the largest U.S. cities and/or ones that have lots of techies who may be willing early adopters (e.g. Austin).  Eventually, they will work their way down to mid-size cities like Jax.  LOL, maybe our desire to adopt "cutting edge" AV tech will bring them here sooner that not.  Regardless, when they arrive, U2C will be rendered totally moot, if it doesn't fall on its own sword before then. JTA and all the U2C supporters are going to look awful foolish at that point and that will be the least of their embarassment.

Since Lyft is now partnered with Holon, it would be a savvy business move by Waymo/Uber to enter the Jax market earlier than they normally would have to play defense against Lyft/Holon's growth.

An interesting dynamic is that I don't believe JTA/COJ can do anything to prevent Waymo from entering the market either. Florida Statute 316.85 preempts a local municipalities ability to regulate autonomous vehicles.

[jaxlongtimer]

The below shows how steep JTA's AV curve is going to be... they likely have zero chance to do better than Tesla which is failing to deliver.  And so, likely, will JTA fail.  And, fair warning, "puffery" and broken promises have serious consequences.  City leaders are going to find out.

Elon Musk's Self-Driving Tesla Lies Are Finally Catching Up To Him

For nearly a decade Elon Musk has claimed Teslas can truly drive themselves. They can't. Now California regulators, a Miami jury and a new class action suit are calling him on it.

...Nine years ago, Elon Musk told reporters that Tesla was taking a bold leap into the future by equipping its electric lineup with all the tech it would ever need to one day operate as truly autonomous vehicles.

"The full autonomy hardware suite will be standard on all vehicles Tesla makes from here on out," Musk said. When fully utilized at some later date, as the AI-enabled software was refined, an array of digital cameras, ultrasonic sensors and radar would give Teslas full "Level 5" autonomy – a designation indicating a robotic ability to drive under all conditions.

It wasn't true then and still isn't....

....The class-action suit comes on the heels of a separate federal case in Miami this month in which a jury determined that Tesla bore some responsibility for a fatal 2019 crash that occurred while its Autopilot feature was engaged, and ordered the company to pay $243 million in damages. Meanwhile, the company could temporarily lose its ability to sell cars in California, its top U.S. market, if a judge in a case brought by the state's Department of Motor Vehicles determines it misled consumers by overstating the self-driving ability of its vehicles.

"The overarching thing is none of this is new. This has all been a long time coming," said Phil Koopman, an autonomous vehicle tech researcher and professor emeritus at Carnegie Mellon University. "We're sort of seeing the pieces fall into place now, but it's not out of the blue by any stretch."

The legal setbacks aren't a huge financial problem, at least so far, but a reputational one as they undercut Musk's continued rhetoric about Tesla being a leader in autonomous driving, despite hard evidence to support it. Alphabet's Waymo, which operates commercial robotaxis in five major U.S. cities and is testing in 10 more, has solidified its position as the dominant player in that space. Musk said on Tesla's results call that the company will ultimately overtake Waymo because its system is much cheaper, though a robotaxi pilot Tesla launched in Austin in June, with human safety drivers in the front seat, suggests it has a long way to go to catch up.

"Right now, there are real robotaxis carrying real people on real roads," said Bryant Walker Smith, an AV researcher and professor at the University of South Carolina. In July, Smith served as an expert witness for the California DMV in its case against Tesla. "None of them is a Tesla."...

...In court cases, attorneys for Tesla have argued that comments by Musk are "puffery," boastful exaggerations that aren't meant to be taken literally. Yet that's not something typically ever seen with auto companies, given that improper concern for customer safety can result in massively expensive liability lawsuits and legal repercussions. Tesla has largely avoided both until recently, despite the fact that an estimated 59 fatalities have been linked to the use of Autopilot and FSD, according to data compiled on Tesladeaths.com....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2025/08/20/elon-musks-self-driving-tesla-lies-are-finally-catching-up-to-him/

[MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain]

We did the study. Not sure why this hasn't taken off. The u2c is obviously a failed project. My opinion is this can actually spur development for dt Jax and elevate traffic big time for those traveling during rush hour, lessen traffic on gameday and major events - though it may not rub on weekends. I personally would rather take a train vs adding additional miles on my car + less risk of getting into collision. This rail gets you to basically the heart of both cities and benefits Jax more than St Aug which has a really nice tourism scene. It's a no brainer. You add additional line to the airport and to the west side and beaches via Nocatee.

We obviously need more attractions dt Jax, but this needs to happen. It could actually make the u2c actually be feasible imo. First you need something to attract ppl dt Jax for u2c to work. We don't have that besides a few events, no main attraction. Give the ppl an aquarium and a ferris wheel, more restaurants and nightlife?! I'd be interested to see how many ppl use the u2c  since inception. My guess less than 1000 and that's being generous.

Does anyone know if it's on hold or the status of the rail? Not sure when they made the vids in the study, but if dt Jax can be built like that around JTA building, I think that's a win. Maybe a glimpse of what UF will do.

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43572ee892264d9aa1df6dc1c72e6a24

[urban_]

Not sure when they made the vids in the study, but if dt Jax can be built like that around JTA building, I think that's a win.

Couldn't agree more. It will spur so much development and allow a completely new mode of transportation to the city, making it better for everyone, especially with ever-increasing traffic. In my wildest dreams, when they cancel the U2C, they'll throw the money allocated for it into the commuter rail. I'm extremely doubtful for this, but I would do just about anything to make it happen. If nothing else, we need to move the Amtrak station back downtown at or near the old terminal. We're not leaving much behind; even if they just built a temporary platform and ticketing booth, it would be a massive improvement and amenity.
The longer we wait, the more we allow our city to develop inefficiently for long-term potential.

[FlaBoy]

Any chance they can get Waymo to take over this situation and save face and taxpayer dollars?

The below shows how steep JTA's AV curve is going to be... they likely have zero chance to do better than Tesla which is failing to deliver.  And so, likely, will JTA fail.  And, fair warning, "puffery" and broken promises have serious consequences.  City leaders are going to find out.

Elon Musk's Self-Driving Tesla Lies Are Finally Catching Up To Him

For nearly a decade Elon Musk has claimed Teslas can truly drive themselves. They can't. Now California regulators, a Miami jury and a new class action suit are calling him on it.

...Nine years ago, Elon Musk told reporters that Tesla was taking a bold leap into the future by equipping its electric lineup with all the tech it would ever need to one day operate as truly autonomous vehicles.

"The full autonomy hardware suite will be standard on all vehicles Tesla makes from here on out," Musk said. When fully utilized at some later date, as the AI-enabled software was refined, an array of digital cameras, ultrasonic sensors and radar would give Teslas full "Level 5" autonomy – a designation indicating a robotic ability to drive under all conditions.

It wasn't true then and still isn't....

....The class-action suit comes on the heels of a separate federal case in Miami this month in which a jury determined that Tesla bore some responsibility for a fatal 2019 crash that occurred while its Autopilot feature was engaged, and ordered the company to pay $243 million in damages. Meanwhile, the company could temporarily lose its ability to sell cars in California, its top U.S. market, if a judge in a case brought by the state's Department of Motor Vehicles determines it misled consumers by overstating the self-driving ability of its vehicles.

"The overarching thing is none of this is new. This has all been a long time coming," said Phil Koopman, an autonomous vehicle tech researcher and professor emeritus at Carnegie Mellon University. "We're sort of seeing the pieces fall into place now, but it's not out of the blue by any stretch."

The legal setbacks aren't a huge financial problem, at least so far, but a reputational one as they undercut Musk's continued rhetoric about Tesla being a leader in autonomous driving, despite hard evidence to support it. Alphabet's Waymo, which operates commercial robotaxis in five major U.S. cities and is testing in 10 more, has solidified its position as the dominant player in that space. Musk said on Tesla's results call that the company will ultimately overtake Waymo because its system is much cheaper, though a robotaxi pilot Tesla launched in Austin in June, with human safety drivers in the front seat, suggests it has a long way to go to catch up.

"Right now, there are real robotaxis carrying real people on real roads," said Bryant Walker Smith, an AV researcher and professor at the University of South Carolina. In July, Smith served as an expert witness for the California DMV in its case against Tesla. "None of them is a Tesla."...

...In court cases, attorneys for Tesla have argued that comments by Musk are "puffery," boastful exaggerations that aren't meant to be taken literally. Yet that's not something typically ever seen with auto companies, given that improper concern for customer safety can result in massively expensive liability lawsuits and legal repercussions. Tesla has largely avoided both until recently, despite the fact that an estimated 59 fatalities have been linked to the use of Autopilot and FSD, according to data compiled on Tesladeaths.com....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2025/08/20/elon-musks-self-driving-tesla-lies-are-finally-catching-up-to-him/