Landmark downtown restaurant River City Brewing could make way for apartments

[Charles Hunter]

The best leverage (if DIA has it) would be to make it a requirement of the transfer of the lease.

Bingo. In this case COJ DOES have leverage.

But ... will they use it?
Or will they follow the usual City "strategy" of folding if the developer hints they might not do the project if the City requires them to include indoor plumbing or something equally onerous?

[bl8jaxnative]

Walking down the riverwalk it always amazes me that 6 floor parking garages line most of it.

If you were on a Riveralk llined with 6 story garages, you weren't in Jacksonville.



Looking forward to this project.  RCB has become an eyesore.  Would be a nice addition downtown and a vast improvement over the current state of things.   

[vicupstate]

If you were on a Riveralk llined with 6 story garages, you weren't in Jacksonville.

Riverplace Tower, The Hilton, The Strand, The Peninsula all have garages that face the river on the Southbank.     

[jaxlongtimer]

If you were on a Riveralk llined with 6 story garages, you weren't in Jacksonville.

Riverplace Tower, The Hilton, The Strand, The Peninsula all have garages that face the river on the Southbank.   

You can add Baptist, St. Vincent's and the Hyatt in other urban-area parts of the river.  I believe a few other condo/apartment towers (e.g the one at One Call?) might also do so at ground level.

[Tacachale]

Lol, some people never seem to get tired of being wrong.

[bl8jaxnative]

If you were on a Riveralk llined with 6 story garages, you weren't in Jacksonville.

Riverplace Tower, The Hilton, The Strand, The Peninsula all have garages that face the river on the Southbank.   

You can add Baptist, St. Vincent's and the Hyatt in other urban-area parts of the river.  I believe a few other condo/apartment towers (e.g the one at One Call?) might also do so at ground level.

Yes, it's a veritable death tunnel on that stretch, isn't it?   It's such horrible no one dares set foot there.

Lined with means all along and on both sides.  Not in a one spot.

Outside of Saskatchewan, no one would call a road "lined with trees" if it had 3 trees in 3 miles.  Please show the English language more respect.

[CityLife]

I'm so annoyed by this rendering, especially from Related - one of the largest developers there is. They know mixed use very well.

To me there should be 2 Restaurants: One similar in concept to RCBC (I don't care if it's a brewery or not, just a full service restaurant), and one that is perhaps only a window with outside tables. This would cater to boaters, visitors, park goers, etc.

For Related, this shouldn't be a hard add.

There are two "Related" companies. Related Group and Related Companies. Stephen Ross (Dolphins owner) has a piece of both I believe, but his main company is Related Companies. Related Companies does a lot of large-scale, horizontal mixed-use development like Hudson Yards, The Grand in LA, The 78 in Chicago, and Rosemary Square (former City Place) in Downtown West Palm. The Related Group is the one doing this proposed project and they are more of a single building developer. They are still a huge developer (especially for Jax), but their forte is not dining, entertainment, and activation of urban areas. Not to say the City with it's leverage can't push them, but it's not their sweet spot.

Also, ground floor waterfront dining in a vertical tower rarely has the ambiance and of a standalone waterfront restaurant, where it is easier to create interesting outdoor seating areas.  Is adding back a waterfront restaurant in an apartment building really going to create much vibrancy there? Did having RCBC on the site (with a better outdoor setup) ever do anything to activate the Southbank Riverwalk?  Problem is it's wedged between two bridges, is on a poorly designed Riverwalk with no amenities and connectivity to residential neighborhoods, and there is little nearby to ever create any kind of vibrancy. If you were a developer would you gamble on MOSH actually becoming a legitimate draw? Not to say MOSH will not or cannot make major improvements through their capital campaign, but I wouldn't bank on that if I was a developer. Nor would I bank on an isolated waterfront restaurant in an apartment building doing well. 

IMO, Jax needs to pick one Downtown spot to create a dining and entertainment district and go all in on it. This is how Orlando, Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, Delray Beach, Winter Park, and so many other places around the state have created bustling entertainment districts. It does no good to have a hodgepodge of restaurants here and there. There are ample opportunities to add waterfront dining along the northbank, in proximity to other dining and entertainment uses, where Jax can create something truly special.

[Ken_FSU]

Also, ground floor waterfront dining in a vertical tower rarely has the ambiance and of a standalone waterfront restaurant, where it is easier to create interesting outdoor seating areas.  Is adding back a waterfront restaurant in an apartment building really going to create much vibrancy there?

Ground floor restaurant with rooftop bar (like River & Post, the Rise development, Vista Brooklyn (more of a lounge here, to be fair), Cowford, what's proposed for the VyStar/Profit building & the Trio Courtyard & Independent Life, etc.) would be amazing in this spot and add a lot of vibrancy.

View of the river, skyline, and fountain would be incredible.

[CityLife]

Also, ground floor waterfront dining in a vertical tower rarely has the ambiance and of a standalone waterfront restaurant, where it is easier to create interesting outdoor seating areas.  Is adding back a waterfront restaurant in an apartment building really going to create much vibrancy there?

Ground floor restaurant with rooftop bar (like River & Post, the Rise development, Vista Brooklyn (more of a lounge here, to be fair), Cowford, what's proposed for the VyStar/Profit building & the Trio Courtyard & Independent Life, etc.) would be amazing in this spot and add a lot of vibrancy.

View of the river, skyline, and fountain would be incredible.

Having isolated restaurants and rooftop bars does not create vibrancy. Have you ever been out in Downtown Orlando, Clematis Street, Atlantic Avenue, Los Olas, or Duval Street?

Just to highlight how spaced out Jacksonville's Downtown scene is:

The distance from RCBC to River and Post is .3 miles further than it is from Chelsea Market is to Times Square.
The distance from Vista Brooklyn to Cowford Chophouse is .5 miles further than it is from Times Square to Central Park
The distance from the Laura Street Trio to the Rise Development is the same distance as it is from Central Park to Bryant Park

Downtown Jax actually has enough stuff to already have a vibrant entertainment district, but everything is spread out as widely as Midtown Manhattan, with 1/100,000 of the residential density.

[Steve]

No argument there, but I'd also argue the RCBC/Friendship Fountain/MOSH site isn't the one to develop a restaurant district in. This is an area that is largely open space, and I believe that should be kept:

- The apartment development IF they add mixed use (even just a single restaurant) is fine. Not transformative, but fine.
- MOSH is aggressively working on fund raising for their expansion. I hope it happens as THAT would be transformative by itself.
- I'm completely fine with the rest of the space being parkland, etc.

Expand out from that area - you have Two Prudential Plaza, an office building built in the 1980's that outside of the main entrance, is about as lively on the ground floor as a warehouse. Going further you have a ridiculous traffic light where San Marco, Prudential, Acosta Off Ramp, and the Railroad tracks all converging under an overpass. That's not being fixed easily. A little further out you have the hospital and the OneCall/new Apartments which aren't exactly designed to be walkable.

There is a lot of vacant land and empty buildings in the core on the northbank - focus things like a restaurant district there. To Boyer's credit, she's identified the Laura/Hogan and Bay St Corridors for those places, and DIA is offering facade grants. The new historic preservation bill if passed (passed both committees 7-0) should help a lot.

I'm not saying it's easy or we don't have a long way to do. WE DO. But, if there's an area that I'm okay having an isolated restaurant, it's at this location here.

[Steve]

Downtown Jax actually has enough stuff to already have a vibrant entertainment district, but everything is spread out as widely as Midtown Manhattan, with 1/100,000 of the residential density.

Now, your point about this is 100% spot on. I agree completely. I just don't see the Friendship Park site as the lynchpin to this.

[Captain Zissou]

If you were on a Riveralk llined with 6 story garages, you weren't in Jacksonville.

Riverplace Tower, The Hilton, The Strand, The Peninsula all have garages that face the river on the Southbank.     

Don't look for him to rely on facts to make his points.  I'm trying hard to understand what he actually wants downtown to look like.  From what I can tell, a razed moonscape paid for with COJ taxpayer money is the ideal. 

[Captain Zissou]

There is a lot of vacant land and empty buildings in the core on the northbank - focus things like a restaurant district there. To Boyer's credit, she's identified the Laura/Hogan and Bay St Corridors for those places, and DIA is offering façade grants. The new historic preservation bill if passed (passed both committees 7-0) should help a lot.

I'm cool with Laura/Hogan.  If Bay Street is to happen, we need both sides of the street activated.  The businesses on the North side of the street are doing what they can, but they will struggle as long as the city is waiting for a "game changer" on the other side of the street.  The city needs to get real and do something feasible rather than let the sites sit vacant for 10 years waiting on a billionaire philanthropist to save them.

We are starting to get decent amounts of residential on the southbank, La Villa, and Brooklyn, but we're trying to make the entertainment districts in the CBD.  For that to happen, we need to reinforce the connectivity between those areas as much as possible.  Your most likely and most consistent customers are going to be the ones living nearby, so facilitate there use of these new initiatives.

[Tacachale]

I'm so annoyed by this rendering, especially from Related - one of the largest developers there is. They know mixed use very well.

To me there should be 2 Restaurants: One similar in concept to RCBC (I don't care if it's a brewery or not, just a full service restaurant), and one that is perhaps only a window with outside tables. This would cater to boaters, visitors, park goers, etc.

For Related, this shouldn't be a hard add.

There are two "Related" companies. Related Group and Related Companies. Stephen Ross (Dolphins owner) has a piece of both I believe, but his main company is Related Companies. Related Companies does a lot of large-scale, horizontal mixed-use development like Hudson Yards, The Grand in LA, The 78 in Chicago, and Rosemary Square (former City Place) in Downtown West Palm. The Related Group is the one doing this proposed project and they are more of a single building developer. They are still a huge developer (especially for Jax), but their forte is not dining, entertainment, and activation of urban areas. Not to say the City with it's leverage can't push them, but it's not their sweet spot.

Also, ground floor waterfront dining in a vertical tower rarely has the ambiance and of a standalone waterfront restaurant, where it is easier to create interesting outdoor seating areas.  Is adding back a waterfront restaurant in an apartment building really going to create much vibrancy there? Did having RCBC on the site (with a better outdoor setup) ever do anything to activate the Southbank Riverwalk?  Problem is it's wedged between two bridges, is on a poorly designed Riverwalk with no amenities and connectivity to residential neighborhoods, and there is little nearby to ever create any kind of vibrancy. If you were a developer would you gamble on MOSH actually becoming a legitimate draw? Not to say MOSH will not or cannot make major improvements through their capital campaign, but I wouldn't bank on that if I was a developer. Nor would I bank on an isolated waterfront restaurant in an apartment building doing well. 

IMO, Jax needs to pick one Downtown spot to create a dining and entertainment district and go all in on it. This is how Orlando, Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, Delray Beach, Winter Park, and so many other places around the state have created bustling entertainment districts. It does no good to have a hodgepodge of restaurants here and there. There are ample opportunities to add waterfront dining along the northbank, in proximity to other dining and entertainment uses, where Jax can create something truly special.

I wouldn't call RCBC well laid out, and many would say it's been pretty mediocre for years. Still it's stayed open for 22 years and when there are concerts and events it's pretty vibrant. Losing it without a replacement would be a step back. To my mind, there are plenty of things that could be done to better integrate a restaurant to the park and Riverwalk, with a few tweaks it could better than what's there now.

[marcuscnelson]

If you were on a Riveralk llined with 6 story garages, you weren't in Jacksonville.

Riverplace Tower, The Hilton, The Strand, The Peninsula all have garages that face the river on the Southbank.     

Don't look for him to rely on facts to make his points.  I'm trying hard to understand what he actually wants downtown to look like.  From what I can tell, a razed moonscape paid for with COJ taxpayer money is the ideal.

That's the next step of his plan. Cancel the Artemis moon missions and just do the moonwalks in Downtown instead. Somehow it'll cost the same as actually doing the Artemis missions.