Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020

[fieldafm]

Tom Pettway, former owner of the Jaguars, personally recruited Bill Foley to relocate Fidelity from California to Jacksonville. Fidelity was looking to escape California's high cost of living and high tax environment... and Pettway put on the full-court press to ensure Jacksonville (who had a small Fidelity presence with the acquisition of Alltel's title business) was where Fidelity would choose its next home. Pettway even hosted Foley at his personal house for weeks, and later sold him that same property. Foley directly credited the Jaguars ownership (see above) and the growing nature of the city since the birth of the Jaguars as major reasons as to why Jacksonville was the right place to relocate his suite of companies.  There were many states and cities that had as good of business-friendly taxation policies and cost of living profiles, that would have gladly given modest incentives to lure two Fortune 500 companies to setup shop.

Fidelity, for its scale, relatively inexpensive public incentives required to get and keep them here expanding, and the huge payrolls they've created... is probably the City's best economic development success story, ever. 

[marcuscnelson]

This has been some really interesting conversation today. Obviously (or maybe not, I don't know if my birthday is visible), the Jags have been around longer than I've been alive, so I don't have the personal experience of knowing the city prior to that.

The question at the center of my thinking on this topic has always come down to whether it's worth the cost. It's been said (multiple times in this thread alone, including by myself) that keeping the Jaguars in Jacksonville will likely cost at least $1 billion in public subsidy/investment. Obviously, Jacksonville being as large as it is, there are a lot of other issues and causes that would benefit from even a portion of such a sum. And it's hard, really hard, to imagine looking working or desperate or impoverished people in the face and asking them to be okay with taking even a single cent of their money in taxes or fees to pay one of the world's richest men in hopes that there may, possibly, potentially, be some kind of return one day (and definitely not from Lot J itself). Not to mention how it's incredibly difficult to put a price on whatever civic pride and/or national attention the NFL has given Jacksonville.

At the end of the day, that's why I've come around to the idea of a referendum. I'm sick and tired (I think many people are) of feeling lied to and belittled by the team and by Curry about what this project is, what it means, or what it will do. Especially when the team is performing so poorly (even for them), and at a time when all of the other problems in this city are so incredibly visible. I told City Council that I do love the team, but it's hard to feel that love when it just feels like people are being shaken down at the worst possible time. Starting the infrastructure & remediation now and letting there be a vote when it's time for construction is a chance to make some meaningful progress on the project now, while also giving a chance for things to get better out there, and for everyone to get their house in order to make this happen. There doesn't have to be a complete reset on any progress of the project, but coming up with something more cohesive and equitable should be possible.

Putting the entire city over a barrel isn't necessary, and it would never have been if they'd put in the effort to be more honest and gracious from the start. Offering a realistic and authentic vision for the future of the city, that normal people could feel invested in would have helped enormously, and I don't get why they don't seem interested in that.

[jaxlongtimer]

Tom Pettway, former owner of the Jaguars, personally recruited Bill Foley to relocate Fidelity from California to Jacksonville. Fidelity was looking to escape California's high cost of living and high tax environment... and Pettway put on the full-court press to ensure Jacksonville (who had a small Fidelity presence with the acquisition of Alltel's title business) was where Fidelity would choose its next home. Pettway even hosted Foley at his personal house for weeks, and later sold him that same property. Foley directly credited the Jaguars ownership (see above) and the growing nature of the city since the birth of the Jaguars as major reasons as to why Jacksonville was the right place to relocate his suite of companies.  There were many states and cities that had as good of business-friendly taxation policies and cost of living profiles, that would have gladly given modest incentives to lure two Fortune 500 companies to setup shop.

Fidelity, for its scale, relatively inexpensive public incentives required to get and keep them here expanding, and the huge payrolls they've created... is probably the City's best economic development success story, ever.

Fidelity's initial connection in Jacksonville was acquiring Alltel's mortgage servicing business (formerly Computer Power) which was much more than a "small presence" as, even then, it serviced over 50% of the nation's mortgages as I recall.  They may have had a title business but I have never heard that before.  Alltel's business eventually evolved into FIS and Black Knight under Foley's domain as they grew it and expanded it through acquisitions.  It's come a long way from starting out as the IT department for Stockton, Whatley & Davin's mortage banking business, itself a top 10 company in that industry in its heyday.

Agree, Fidelity coming to Jacksonville was probably our biggest success story since landing Atlantic Coast Line (now CSX) and Prudential (now only a sliver - on the Southbank - of its former Southeastern hub in the One Call building they built) in the 1950's.

Does Petway, the man, get credit or do the Jags, the team, get the credit?  Based on your comments, I am not so sure it doesn't come down mostly to Petway probably selling the far lower costs of doing business here than in Santa Barbara (which I have heard was the main attraction).  I can't imagine relocating a Fortune 500 company based mostly on having an NFL franchise.  Regardless, I  think many people expected the Jags to do much more for us economically speaking.  Obviously, many today are not convinced yet that they have.

Foley was the "billionaire who got away."  He could have easily bought the Jags but instead moved to Las Vegas and bought an NHL franchise.

I think, like the Navy reopening Cecil field, most of the populace likes the idea of having the Jags here.  But, as Mark Woods noted in his column, at what cost?  Everything has a limit and the question is how close is Jacksonville to its limit.  Other cities have drawn lines in the sand with the NFL.  Sometimes it costs them a team.  But, is it the end of the world as we know it?  Lots of cities are thriving that are not NFL cities so I don't think it is a prerequisite to economic success.  Does it give a city that intangible extra - sure - but is it a deciding factor for most people and businesses looking to relocate?  I am not so certain.  I believe the quality of our educational opportunities would rank way over having a team in attracting new businesses and entrepreneurs to our area.  As such, the half cent sales tax just passed for our schools will have an ROI far greater than Lot J or the stadium.  It's disappointing to the mayor and much of the council hold up that investment over details and not give a hoot about Lot J's.

I believe the only shows ever held at the old Gator Bowl are:

Elvis-1955 and 1956
Jerry Lee Lewis-1961
The Beatles-1964
Chicago-1971
Boots Randolph-1973
Stones/Eagles-1975
Marshall Tucker/Charlie Daniels/38 Special-1976
The Who-1976
Bo Diddley-1981
The Jacksons-1984
The Stones-1989

For concerts since, I am wonder if the Jag's could take full credit for all of them.  I took my daughter to the stadium to see NSync led by Justin Timberlake who brought along his girlfriend at the time, Brittany Spears (who, herself, recorded a TV special at our Coliseum once).  The Jags were here then but I don't recall that they had anything to do with staging the concert.  Does anyone know otherwise?

[Captain Zissou]

To me saying Jacksonville is nothing without the Jags is just more of the inferiority complex that the city is famous for. I think JAX needs to invest in itself and stop expecting a 'gamechanger' project or benefactor to do the heavy lifting to making JAX the city it can and wants to be. 
   

I listened to a real estate investment presentation last night put on by a group out of Las Vegas.  They were trying to sell out of town investors on the Jacksonville market (and JWB).  They did mention the Jags early on to say "you know, that place with the jags", but after that they never came up again.  Instead, they spent 2 slides on the job market. 

Ranked #1 for talent attaction, 3rd largest military presence in US with over 50,000 jobs, 60,000 banking and finance employees, world class healthcare system employing 90,000 people, 3 marine terminals, logistics hub, 5,500 Amazon jobs created since 2017, etc etc....

Then they moved on to quality of life, low cost of living, park system, beach, river, dining, small business community, and on and on and on....

It was honestly refreshing to hear those reasons why Jax is great rather than pony up $200M or our future is lost.  Jax has a lot going for it and a bright future.  We need to build up our downtown and bring jobs and housing back to the core, but a gamechanger mentality isn't the right way to do it.  That said, is 400 apartments, a 120 room hotel, and a medium sized entertainment complex really a gamechanger at all?  That's less than Brooklyn Station, 220 Riverside, 200 Riverside, and the new Hilton Garden Inn and about 250% more expensive. It's a start, but it won't make our downtown and it's not even in our current downtown.  $200M within 3 blocks of Laura and Forsyth would fundamentally change our downtown and the effects may spill out east to the stadium. It won't happen the other way around.

[FlaBoy]

I will also add that Florida-Georgia and any stadium concerts in Jacksonville will become a thing of the past if the Jags leave town.

Playing in an NFL stadium has been one of the things that has kept Florida-Georgia from leaving and going onto campus like Auburn-Alabama.

Actually, not having to program around the Jags at all would open up dates for more concerts. Why would GA/FL go to their own stadiums that are not at the same level as Jacksonville's?

I have been told by decision makers that the Jags saved FL-GA because of the stadium upgrade. The game was likely gone without the new stadium. Kirby Smart has been pushing to end the game here anyway but it is such a great environment. In a decade, with no great updates to an aging stadium, FL-GA is likely going to campus. It may last a few years if the Jags were to move in 2031 but you will start seeing headlines, "Gator Bowl Stadium need $100 million worth of updates to keep FL-GA Game and High Level Bowl Game".

[Steve]

I will also add that Florida-Georgia and any stadium concerts in Jacksonville will become a thing of the past if the Jags leave town.

Playing in an NFL stadium has been one of the things that has kept Florida-Georgia from leaving and going onto campus like Auburn-Alabama.

Actually, not having to program around the Jags at all would open up dates for more concerts. Why would GA/FL go to their own stadiums that are not at the same level as Jacksonville's?

Here's the thing - there's a large investment to be made by the teams to play the game here, instead of hosting this as a "home and home" so to speak. Additionally, there are "soft costs", like losing a home recruiting weekend (this is an NCAA rule on neutral site games). Finally, both teams home stadiums are WAY larger than Jacksonville's....even with the seats they add for the game.

So...why do they do it? MONEY! TIAA has additional amenities that drive revenue, and the city makes a ton of money though the game itself and things like bed taxes, etc. In exchange, COJ gives the team a very large payout ($2.7M I believe). Additionally, they throw extra money Georgia's way for travel, as they have to fly vs. Florida who packs into buses.

This is why you're seeing neutral site games at a lot of the newer NFL stadiums such as Arlington and Atlanta.

With the stadium in the condition it was in just before the rebuild for the Jaguars, it wasn't in great shape. With the money that's in college football today (compared to the mid 1990's), that game was gone and the Gator Bowl likely would still be here, but it would be one of those December 22nd bowls that competes with Myrtle Beach and Frisco Bowls

[fieldafm]

Fidelity's initial connection in Jacksonville was acquiring Alltel's mortgage servicing business (formerly Computer Power) which was much more than a "small presence" as, even then, it serviced over 50% of the nation's mortgages as I recall.

CPI is a nice story, and it made a handful of locals here wealthy.

Alltel's presence in Jax was still relatively small potatoes. There were around 200 local employees, and about the same number within that particular division at the company's corporate HQ in Little Rock.  Alltel had about 45% of the nation's mortgage servicing business, but that was about to be cut well in half before Fidelity bought that division. That portion of Alltel's business was about to die, as most of the big banks' business were being lost to Fiserv. Alltel hadn't invested in that business, and they were losing clients fast.

Alltel's business eventually evolved into FIS and Black Knight under Foley's domain as they grew it and expanded it through acquisitions.

Other way around. Alltel's portion of that business was toast if not for Fidelity. The Fidelity suite of companies made huge investments in IT, acquiring other companies and eventually has become a dominant world leader in title services, credit insurance, payment processing services, mortgage servicing and a host of other IT-related services.  Fidelity gets credit for their own success.

They may have had a title business but I have never heard that before.

Sorry, that was my dyslexia kicking in.

Prudential (now only a sliver - on the Southbank - of its former Southeastern hub in the One Call building they built) in the 1950's.

Prudential's HQ was never located in Jacksonville. Ironically, Fidelity has more employees in that building now then Prudential has.

Does Petway, the man, get credit or do the Jags, the team, get the credit?  Based on your comments, I am not so sure it doesn't come down mostly to Petway probably selling the far lower costs of doing business here than in Santa Barbara (which I have heard was the main attraction).  I can't imagine relocating a Fortune 500 company based mostly on having an NFL franchise.  Regardless, I  think many people expected the Jags to do much more for us economically speaking.  Obviously, many today are not convinced yet that they have.

I don't want to surmise... that's why I am repeating the same basic story that I have personally heard Wayne Weaver, Tom Pettway, Ceree Harden, Ernie Smith (who headed the division) and Bill Foley himself all repeat at various times over the last 15 years about how Fidelity came to Jax.

A CEO of a huge F500 company doesn't get frustrated in the morning while walking on the treadmill and say 'gosh darnit, I'm really tired of these taxes... I just need to find somewhere that is cheap and won't tax me to death'... and two weeks later, goes to the Board and says 'we're moving to Albequerque, NM'.  Economic development deals like this are contingent on multiple things- incentives, workforce considerations, taxation policies and above all- relationships with business leaders and government officials.  No one is moving a business to a place where the business community doesn't return their phone calls and the Mayor's office is only interested in how much fees they can stick you with.  The Jaguars ownership group was the lynchpin in the Fidelity deal here in Jax.  The Delaney administration rolled out the red carpet for them, deals were put together to ensure that workforce needs could be met (still in place today), airplane hangers were constructed at JIA to support the corporate travel demands needed for what was at one point three F500 companies, etc, etc.  If all it took to get F500 companies to relocate somewhere were low cost of living and low taxes... then Mobile, Alabama would have a dozen of them.

Sorry, but you can't say 'well the Jaguars had nothing to do with that... it was the owners of the Jaguars who helped make that happen'.  Like, it only counts if the head coach and punter were involved?  You also can't claim 'oh, well the Jaguars haven't done enough for economic development' while simultaneously conceding that Fidelity was the best economic development deal the City has ever done.  You can't have it both ways.

Although Downtown still sucks, Jacksonville is a growing Sunbelt city.  Without the Jags, we are Birmingham, Mobile, Little Rock, Fresno or Tulsa. I ain't living in any of those places.

I believe the quality of our educational opportunities would rank way over having a team in attracting new businesses and entrepreneurs to our area.

That's such a false narrative and strawman argument.  One is not taking away from the other. One is not being invested in at the expense of the other. You can have an NFL team and a quality school system. At no time in the last 27 years, has a school been unfunded because the municipal budget was saddled with the burden of directing funds instead to the Jaguars.  That's like claiming that the frozen burrito from 7-11 tastes bad because someone in Saudi Arabia doesn't eat pork.

Foley was the "billionaire who got away."  He could have easily bought the Jags but instead moved to Las Vegas and bought an NHL franchise.

Foley had the chance to buy the Jags for sure, but by that point had already moved to Vegas to be closer to his vineyards. He has started quite a few more acquisition-based companies in Vegas... along with the NHL team. Fun fact: the old fire station along Riverside Ave was at one point a storage facility for some of his personal wine collection for when he would spend time in Jax.

But, as Mark Woods noted in his column, at what cost?  Everything has a limit and the question is how close is Jacksonville to its limit.

Yes, it is reasonable to accept that there is a finite limit about what type of public support can be tolerated.  Since 1993, the Jaguars have not even come close to that point.  No essential City service has been cut or not funded.... because we've instead redirected money to an NFL franchise.   Don't have the info on MSA right in front of me, but Jax was the 55th largest TV market in 1993. Its now the 41st.  Jax is a Sunbelt city with many great features. I love it here more than many residents can even fathom. Sure, Jax would have continued modest growth without an NFL franchise... but living here before and after the Jags.... this city is objectively night and day better than it was in the late 80's/early 90's.  To deny the Jaguars had nothing to do with leapfrogging from being a city where you can dump chemicals to a city where you can move an operations center to employ 500 FinTech professionals... is detached from reality. You have to have a nefarious agenda to argue otherwise.  For nearly 30 years, the Jaguars have been an absolute BARGAIN for the city of Jacksonville in relation to public spending versus what the city has become since the NFL came.

Should the Lot J deal be better? Absolutely, yes. Does that mean that its an all-or-nothing thing? No.  I don't buy the 'Jags are moving' implications over Lot J.  This is all negotiating bravo. Is it consternating as a fan and as a taxpayer? It can be, if you look at it from purely an emotional standpoint instead of being a bit more rational about it.  Is Lot J ONE of the things the Jags need to stay in Jax?  Probably yes, which is why both sides have to work on making the deal more palatable and not so one-sided.  Reason should prevail once the bravado dies down.

For concerts since, I am wonder if the Jag's could take full credit for all of them.

The Jaguars have been the promoters for 4 of the last 5 concerts that came to the stadium (Country Music Fest, was an outside promoter, but the Jags had some revenue sharing deals working with that promoter).

As to the U2 and NSync concerts of the early 2000's.... no, the previous Jags ownership group didn't bring those concerts to town (under Khan's ownership, concerts have been a growing part of the team's revenue strategy).  But in the same token.. like the FL/GA game, those concerts wouldn't have been held here if the old Gator Bowl with its rusting and leaking structure hanging out in the wind was still standing at One TIAA Bank Plaza.

 

[Charles Hunter]

Good comments, I think the City's taxpayers have to get a better deal on Lot J, when we know there are two more bigs 'asks' coming - Metro Park/Four Seasons and Stadium Upgrades. 

One minor nit to pick

    Prudential (now only a sliver - on the Southbank - of its former Southeastern hub in the One Call building they built) in the 1950's.

Prudential's HQ was never located in Jacksonville. Ironically, Fidelity has more employees in that building now then Prudential has.

You are correct that Prudential's MAIN HQ was not in Jacksonville, I think it was in Newark. But Pru had REGIONAL HQ's in a half-dozen cities around the country, and the South Central Home Office (SCHO) was in Jacksonville, serving several states in the Southeast US.

[fieldafm]

Good comments, I think the City's taxpayers have to get a better deal on Lot J, when we know there are two more bigs 'asks' coming - Metro Park/Four Seasons and Stadium Upgrades. 

One minor nit to pick

    Prudential (now only a sliver - on the Southbank - of its former Southeastern hub in the One Call building they built) in the 1950's.

Prudential's HQ was never located in Jacksonville. Ironically, Fidelity has more employees in that building now then Prudential has.

You are correct that Prudential's MAIN HQ was not in Jacksonville, I think it was in Newark. But Pru had REGIONAL HQ's in a half-dozen cities around the country, and the South Central Home Office (SCHO) was in Jacksonville, serving several states in the Southeast US.

I'm well aware. I have two family members who retired as executives from Prudential.

A regional operations center, and a corporate HQ for a F500 company are worlds apart in terms of economic impact. Prudential was a nice employer for some time in Jacksonville. About half of those jobs locally were administrative and call center reps, with the other half being mainly the better paid jobs like underwriters, middle management and (some) actuarial business. That's not remotely comparable to a F500 HQ.

[Steve]

^To that point, Prudential was never a serious candidate to sponsor naming rights on the Jaguars Stadium. However the NHL Arena in Downtown Newark is....the Prudential Center.

[FlaBoy]

Good comments, I think the City's taxpayers have to get a better deal on Lot J, when we know there are two more bigs 'asks' coming - Metro Park/Four Seasons and Stadium Upgrades. 

One minor nit to pick

    Prudential (now only a sliver - on the Southbank - of its former Southeastern hub in the One Call building they built) in the 1950's.

Prudential's HQ was never located in Jacksonville. Ironically, Fidelity has more employees in that building now then Prudential has.

You are correct that Prudential's MAIN HQ was not in Jacksonville, I think it was in Newark. But Pru had REGIONAL HQ's in a half-dozen cities around the country, and the South Central Home Office (SCHO) was in Jacksonville, serving several states in the Southeast US.

I'm well aware. I have two family members who retired as executives from Prudential.

A regional operations center, and a corporate HQ for a F500 company are worlds apart in terms of economic impact. Prudential was a nice employer for some time in Jacksonville. About half of those jobs locally were administrative and call center reps, with the other half being mainly the better paid jobs like underwriters, middle management and (some) actuarial business. That's not remotely comparable to a F500 HQ.

If the GOP holds the Senate, and the ridiculously high level of taxes continue in NY without deductions for the state taxes, I think you will continue to see an exodus out of NY and IL, even some out of CA. Now, Texas has been the great beneficiary of the tech company exodus out of CA. Nashville is also now the hot place to go with Tennessee's lack of income tax. However, it looks like the big finance folks are eyeing South Florida at this point. Miami is an international brand with low taxes. It will be interesting to see if we can get some of those jobs with our lower cost of living to consider putting some of their rank and file workforce in a place like Jax even if the executives are in Miami.

[jaxlongtimer]

However, it looks like the big finance folks are eyeing South Florida at this point. Miami is an international brand with low taxes. It will be interesting to see if we can get some of those jobs with our lower cost of living to consider putting some of their rank and file workforce in a place like Jax even if the executives are in Miami.

^ FlaBoy, I recently started a thread on this very subject, "New York Financials Looking to Move to Florida," if you would like to add to that conversation:  https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36707.msg507486.html#msg507486

A regional operations center, and a corporate HQ for a F500 company are worlds apart in terms of economic impact. Prudential was a nice employer for some time in Jacksonville. About half of those jobs locally were administrative and call center reps, with the other half being mainly the better paid jobs like underwriters, middle management and (some) actuarial business. That's not remotely comparable to a F500 HQ.

My understanding was Jacksonville gained a lot of cache from Prudential, a blue chip Fortune 500 company, setting up shop here.  Plus, the symbolism of their building, which I recall was the tallest building in Florida when it was built, put a lot of eyes on the City.  Too young to recall those times, just repeating what I have gleaned over the years from others and what I have read.  Jacksonville at one time was known as the "Hartford of the South" so Prudential adding to that was significant too.

I believe that our 100+ year history as a mecca for insurance, banking and mortgage banking has much to do with laying the foundation for our FinTech orientation today so every company historically operating here gets some credit for that even if they are now gone or otherwise diminished.

Trivia question:  Prudential's slogan used to be "own a piece of the rock" referring to its logo, the Rock of Gibraltar.  It seems to me they actually had a piece of said rock mounted in their entry plaza (now mostly a parking garage for One Call) in front of the building.  What happened to that? 

[Ken_FSU]

One thing that I think gets lost sometimes when talking about how the subsidies that Jacksonville offers compares to what other markets offer is that $250 million in Jacksonville isn't the same as $250 million somewhere like Kansas City with larger populations, larger economies, and state income taxes to draw from. For better or worse, the same $250 million Lot J is going to put more strain on a taxypayer in Jacksonville than it would put on a taxpayer in most other markets.

Hopefully someone in the city is doing more in-depth research than a guy sitting in Bellwether on his lunch break, but here's some back-of-the-napkin numbers that I pulled together breaking down NFL market sizes, city growth rates, ticket prices, per capita ticket buying burden, and relative impact to taxpayers of a $208 million investment at Lot vs. other NFL markets.

Looking at the numbers, it's definitely more of a chips-all-in move for Jacksonville than it would be for just about any other NFL market, particularly when you consider that we've already got the third highest market strain to fill the stadium each season (second, if you consider Toronto to be part of the Buffalo market).

I know it's a wildly unpopular opinion, but when you see the relative strain that the Jags put on the local economy, I actually don't hate the idea of sending that one home game a year to London in perpetuity to loosen the burden a little bit and spread that money elsewhere into our local economy.

We're growing, but lots of other cities are growing as well, and I don't know if we've ever going to "catch up" to the point where a lot of sacrifices don't have to be made to keep up with the NFL Jones'.

Strongly believe the intangibles outweigh the ante to play, even if the economic studies show negligible impact.

Copying and pasting the numbers because I think they're interesting and I think they put the ask in a little more context than "what are other cities paying?"

And I also think they refute the stupid arguments that Jacksonville isn't a strong NFL market. Our city has over-performed from day one.

[Wacca Pilatka]

Trivia question:  Prudential's slogan used to be "own a piece of the rock" referring to its logo, the Rock of Gibraltar.  It seems to me they actually had a piece of said rock mounted in their entry plaza (now mostly a parking garage for One Call) in front of the building.  What happened to that?

My understanding is that this is now in an outdoor plaza on the riverfront by the OneCall building.

[Papa33]

I read anecdotally (I believe in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil) that Prudential wanted to open their regional HQ in Savannah, but Savannah said no because it was too big.  So they opened it in here instead.