Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020

[Ken_FSU]

The damage to the quality of life argument is weak imo. A relatively small segment of Jax currently enjoys any boost to their quality of life as a result of the Jags (i.e. - Those with the disposable income to attend games.) Even for those who do attend games, there are only a few game days a year where they get to enjoy this asset.

To me, the quality of life argument is less about going to 8 football games a year, and more about having something that genuinely ties the region together and gives the community something to rally around collectively. Particularly for a city with Jacksonville's characteristics - 800 square miles without the regional identity of a Miami, Orlando, or even St. Augustine.

In the absence of collective cultural institutions like the Jags, what really makes us a community as opposed to a loose collection of sprawling neighborhoods?

Just personally speaking (and to your point, coming from someone who lives in a ZIP code that the city hasn't neglected for decades), having the Jags in Jacksonville has made me closer to my family, friends, and neighbors (going to games together or having cookouts on Sunday). It's brought my coworkers together (both sharing in the excitement of the 2017 run and bitching about the bad times on Mondays). It gives me a common bond to talk to strangers about here in the city.

One of my favorite quotes, and I wish I had it in front of me, was from John Delaney.

It was from after the Jags' first home game, and he basically said that, for the first time in his life, he saw the Jacksonville community, regardless of race, age, or political differences, standing proudly side-by-side to support something.

One of my fondest memories of working downtown was watching a construction worker in a Blake Bortles jersey standing on top of the Barnett working to restore the roof. People would randomly shout Duval at him, and he'd shout it back every time.

Hard to put a price on little things like that, but I think they serve a higher purpose to a community than a balance sheet can show.

And it's hard to argue the fact there aren't many great cities in this country, or major world cities, that don't have a major league professional sports presence.

We should never negotiate from a place of fear, but the fact remains that if we did lose the Jags, we wouldn't be in line for another big four franchise for DECADES.

[jaxlongtimer]

Another splendid column in the Times Union re: Lot J.  This time by Mark Woods:

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/mark-woods/2020/12/09/beyond-lot-j-its-worth-asking-what-nfl-team-worth-city/6480228002/

It concludes with:

So, while it's important to get into the weeds of each deal, we also need to step back and ask: What is an NFL team worth to a city?

I don't know the answer to that question. Just that it isn't nothing. And it also isn't everything.

[FlaBoy]

On a national level, nothing has brought more visibility to Jacksonville than the Jaguars. Just a Thursday night football game once a year brings 10 million viewers. Nearly 70 million Americans watched the AFC Championship between the Jaguars and Patriots. We will have to figure out the future, but losing this team cannot be part of the future.

That said, I know St. Louis has been mentioned, but it is clear the NFL isn't going to London anytime soon with a full time squad. There aren't many larger markets willing to spend much money on building a stadium like St. Louis or San Diego. They also poured lots of money into other franchises like the Cardinals and Padres. San Antonio is possibly a real threat but the Cowboys and Texans would try to block anything there. Portland seems to have its eyes set on baseball as well in the future. OKC spent a lot of money to get the Thunder there. Orlando may also be a threat at some point in the next decade but they have also spent a lot on the Magic and even revamping th Citrus Bowl.

The Jaguars have a captive audience in Jax and own the market. It is a growing market as well unlike St. Louis. Long term, the biggest threats are a third team in Texas and London. I think the Chargers are such a mess that they would eventually be targeted to return to San Diego if San Diego were ever willing to build a stadium.

Every other metro in the top 40 metros except Va Beach, Providence, and Austin have an NFL, NHL, NBA or MLB franchise. Of the 10 metros smaller than us, New Orleans, OKC, Raleigh, Salt Lake City, Memphis, and Buffalo have a franchise. With the NBA struggling in smaller markets, don't expect that to ever happen. NHL isn't coming to Jax. MLB is definitely not coming to a smaller market in FL with the Rays and Marlins struggling as they have. Jax would be without a franchise for decades in the best case scenario. NFL is king as well without even a real challenger at this point in American professional sports.

[Wacca Pilatka]

The damage to the quality of life argument is weak imo. A relatively small segment of Jax currently enjoys any boost to their quality of life as a result of the Jags (i.e. - Those with the disposable income to attend games.) Even for those who do attend games, there are only a few game days a year where they get to enjoy this asset.

To me, the quality of life argument is less about going to 8 football games a year, and more about having something that genuinely ties the region together and gives the community something to rally around collectively. Particularly for a city with Jacksonville's characteristics - 800 square miles without the regional identity of a Miami, Orlando, or even St. Augustine.

In the absence of collective cultural institutions like the Jags, what really makes us a community as opposed to a loose collection of sprawling neighborhoods?

Just personally speaking (and to your point, coming from someone who lives in a ZIP code that the city hasn't neglected for decades), having the Jags in Jacksonville has made me closer to my family, friends, and neighbors (going to games together or having cookouts on Sunday). It's brought my coworkers together (both sharing in the excitement of the 2017 run and bitching about the bad times on Mondays). It gives me a common bond to talk to strangers about here in the city.

One of my favorite quotes, and I wish I had it in front of me, was from John Delaney.

It was from after the Jags' first home game, and he basically said that, for the first time in his life, he saw the Jacksonville community, regardless of race, age, or political differences, standing proudly side-by-side to support something.

One of my fondest memories of working downtown was watching a construction worker in a Blake Bortles jersey standing on top of the Barnett working to restore the roof. People would randomly shout Duval at him, and he'd shout it back every time.

Hard to put a price on little things like that, but I think they serve a higher purpose to a community than a balance sheet can show.

Ken, I strongly agree with this.  The Jaguars give the region and the city a common experience and elevate its national identity.  Yes, it's been a frustrating and disillusioning common experience in recent years.  But I think about Jake Godbold breaking down in tears the day the expansion team was awarded - my doing pretty much the same thing on watching from afar as a diverse Jacksonville audience filled the stands for a Jaguar game on TV - the ecstatic shared experiences of the first Monday night game in Jacksonville, or fans filling the stadium during and after the 1996 playoff win in Denver - even the national awareness of the Duval chant as you mentioned.  It all underscores how much a pro sports team is intertwined in the fabric of a community, especially in an often overlooked, often unfairly reviled, one-pro-sports-team city like this one.  Many of my childhood memories revolve around Jacksonville's long quest for pro football and how it galvanized the city and brought people together.  The wooing of Bud Adams and the Oilers, the USFL Bulls, the big attendance figures and petitions to the NFL for attention for 80s preseason games between the Falcons and Bucs.

I'm also aware that there are quite a few sports commentators who have been outright vindictive in ridiculing Jacksonville, during its quest for a team and now, who would do a collective end-zone dance if the Jaguars left that I think would do significant damage to the city's psyche and national profile.

And while we can cite detached economic studies of what pro sports teams are really worth, and I understand why, I can't discount the intangible benefits that a pro team can bring, and has brought, to Jacksonville.  I think we can't too easily dismiss the tourism benefit with people who travel to Jacksonville for the primary purpose of seeing Jaguar games, as well as the benefit of retaining Florida-Georgia and potentially adding additional events that comes with maintaining the stadium at NFL level.  There's also factors like the tremendous amount of charitable funding that the Weavers and the Jaguars Foundation have pumped into the community.  Yes, it comes with substantial retention costs, and yes, Khan hasn't been nearly as generous as the Weavers.  But without the Weavers' having had an NFL team in town, who would've provided that level of support for numerous civic institutions and restoration projects?

My love is for the city first and the team second, and I don't particularly want to see the city accept a bad deal or sacrifice other services and amenities to prostrate itself before the Jaguars.  But I don't want to see them given up either.  I know how much value the experience of following them has added to my life over the years, even in the many bad seasons, not because it's about the football but because it's about the city

[Wacca Pilatka]

I've mentioned this before, but I very much doubt San Antonio has any real interest in the NFL or opportunity to land a team.  (I lived in Austin for three years)
1) It's not a particularly wealthy market.  San Antonio and Austin COMBINED are a formidable market, but...
2) The Spurs own the city
3) The Alamodome is 20+ years old and would need substantial renovations to be on par with other NFL stadia.  Darrell K. Royal isn't NFL grade either (and is oversized for a mid-size market in the NFL)
4) Virtually everyone there is heavily committed to long-term Cowboys fandom or, to a much lesser extent, the Texans
5) San Antonio was an early dismissal in the 1993 expansion derby (largely because the Alamodome even then was considered substandard in terms other than its capacity) and its USFL attendance could be measured by the occasional show of hands

[fieldafm]

The damage to the quality of life argument is weak imo. A relatively small segment of Jax currently enjoys any boost to their quality of life as a result of the Jags (i.e. - Those with the disposable income to attend games.) Even for those who do attend games, there are only a few game days a year where they get to enjoy this asset.

To me, the quality of life argument is less about going to 8 football games a year, and more about having something that genuinely ties the region together and gives the community something to rally around collectively. Particularly for a city with Jacksonville's characteristics - 800 square miles without the regional identity of a Miami, Orlando, or even St. Augustine.

In the absence of collective cultural institutions like the Jags, what really makes us a community as opposed to a loose collection of sprawling neighborhoods?

Just personally speaking (and to your point, coming from someone who lives in a ZIP code that the city hasn't neglected for decades), having the Jags in Jacksonville has made me closer to my family, friends, and neighbors (going to games together or having cookouts on Sunday). It's brought my coworkers together (both sharing in the excitement of the 2017 run and bitching about the bad times on Mondays). It gives me a common bond to talk to strangers about here in the city.

One of my favorite quotes, and I wish I had it in front of me, was from John Delaney.

It was from after the Jags' first home game, and he basically said that, for the first time in his life, he saw the Jacksonville community, regardless of race, age, or political differences, standing proudly side-by-side to support something.

One of my fondest memories of working downtown was watching a construction worker in a Blake Bortles jersey standing on top of the Barnett working to restore the roof. People would randomly shout Duval at him, and he'd shout it back every time.

Hard to put a price on little things like that, but I think they serve a higher purpose to a community than a balance sheet can show.

Ken, I strongly agree with this.  The Jaguars give the region and the city a common experience and elevate its national identity.  Yes, it's been a frustrating and disillusioning common experience in recent years.  But I think about Jake Godbold breaking down in tears the day the expansion team was awarded - my doing pretty much the same thing on watching from afar as a diverse Jacksonville audience filled the stands for a Jaguar game on TV - the ecstatic shared experiences of the first Monday night game in Jacksonville, or fans filling the stadium during and after the 1996 playoff win in Denver - even the national awareness of the Duval chant as you mentioned.  It all underscores how much a pro sports team is intertwined in the fabric of a community, especially in an often overlooked, often unfairly reviled, one-pro-sports-team city like this one.  Many of my childhood memories revolve around Jacksonville's long quest for pro football and how it galvanized the city and brought people together.  The wooing of Bud Adams and the Oilers, the USFL Bulls, the big attendance figures and petitions to the NFL for attention for 80s preseason games between the Falcons and Bucs.

I'm also aware that there are quite a few sports commentators who have been outright vindictive in ridiculing Jacksonville, during its quest for a team and now, who would do a collective end-zone dance if the Jaguars left that I think would do significant damage to the city's psyche and national profile.

And while we can cite detached economic studies of what pro sports teams are really worth, and I understand why, I can't discount the intangible benefits that a pro team can bring, and has brought, to Jacksonville.  I think we can't too easily dismiss the tourism benefit with people who travel to Jacksonville for the primary purpose of seeing Jaguar games, as well as the benefit of retaining Florida-Georgia and potentially adding additional events that comes with maintaining the stadium at NFL level.  There's also factors like the tremendous amount of charitable funding that the Weavers and the Jaguars Foundation have pumped into the community.  Yes, it comes with substantial retention costs, and yes, Khan hasn't been nearly as generous as the Weavers.  But without the Weavers' having had an NFL team in town, who would've provided that level of support for numerous civic institutions and restoration projects?

My love is for the city first and the team second, and I don't particularly want to see the city accept a bad deal or sacrifice other services and amenities to prostrate itself before the Jaguars.  But I don't want to see them given up either.  I know how much value the experience of following them has added to my life over the years, even in the many bad seasons, not because it's about the football but because it's about the city

Having grown up here, knowing what the city was like before the Jaguars... and watching City Council meetings on WJCT when the stadium renovations were being debated (many of those Council reps are working for COJ or are still elected officials all these decades later).. and watching the posturing back and forth then... I don't get all worked up when Paul Harden (who was the chief negotiator then as well) or Mark Lamping threaten moving the team.  Wayne Weaver was a sharp guy, and walked away from City Council, twice.

I also know that this city and community are tremendously better since the Jags came here.  Economic development deals back then centered on bringing in call center jobs (that are all gone now) and industries that dumped pollution everywhere.  Jacksonville is a much better city now, has much more of a sense of community now, and economic development deals focus on industries of the future instead of the past.  I do not want to go back to those days. The city LITERALLY stunk back then, as the smells from industry wafted through the city (I lived in between two such factories).

For some old curmudgeons that say Jacksonville was better in the late 80's and early 90's... they are telling lies.  The people that say Jacksonville is better without the Jaguars, are mostly the same NIMBYs that complain that a Mellow Mushroom is going to cause an entire neighborhood to sink into a black hole. 

Believing wholeheartedly that Jacksonville is better with the Jaguars, isn't some denial that the Lot J deal isn't tilted HEAVILY towards the Jaguars and Cordish. Believing in being an NFL city also doesn't mean that one suspends their belief that the Mayor and his administration hasn't acted in the best interests of the people who he was elected to serve... nor does it mean that you also need to believe that its in Jacksonville's best interest to follow this piecemeal approach of breaking up all these real estate development deals into their own separate deals and public asks... until a stadium renovation is even begun to be discussed. Saying yes to a heavily skewed Lot J and then a heavily skewed luxury hotel resort, and then large amounts of money to create some smaller and broken-up parks along the Shipyards site.... puts Jacksonville into a corner where they are so pot-committed, that any stadium deal can be nothing but a rubber-stamp approval. The Jaguars are not putting Jacksonville in an envious position. The Jaguars aren't even putting long-time season ticket members like myself in an envious position by continuing to put a pathetic product on the field. No relationship doesn't have challenges, ebbs and flows and sometimes really tough times when the only way forward is by getting there together.



Nevertheless, anyone arguing for the Jags to take a hike... are the most delusional people in the world.  After over 40 years of calling this place home, I'm not going back to a pre-Jaguars life.  That city was going nowhere, fast.

[vicupstate]

The Super Bowl was supposed to do great things for Jacksonville, but can anyone say there is anything lasting that came from it? I remember at the time that many businesses that were suppose to make big profits from it didn't, in fact they suffered.

To me saying Jacksonville is nothing without the Jags is just more of the inferiority complex that the city is famous for. I think JAX needs to invest in itself and stop expecting a 'gamechanger' project or benefactor to do the heavy lifting to making JAX the city it can and wants to be. 

JAX is at a turning point. It has invested heavily in the Jags for decades. If it choses to proceed down this path, the entirety of the investment will be too much to walk away from and they will have no choice but to pay vastly more money to give them everything they want.

     

[fieldafm]

The Super Bowl was supposed to do great things for Jacksonville, but can anyone say there is anything lasting that came from it? I remember at the time that many businesses that were suppose to make big profits from it didn't, in fact they suffered.

To me saying Jacksonville is nothing without the Jags is just more of the inferiority complex that the city is famous for. I think JAX needs to invest in itself and stop expecting a 'gamechanger' project or benefactor to do the heavy lifting to making JAX the city it can and wants to be. 

JAX is at a turning point. It has invested heavily in the Jags for decades. If it choses to proceed down this path, the entirety of the investment will be too much to walk away from and they will have no choice but to pay vastly more money to give them everything they want.

   

Agree that the 'gamechanger' mentality has doomed Downtown for some time. Lot J isn't going to be a gamechanger, and trying to create a new 'neighborhood' near the stadium isn't going to somehow spur development over a mile away in the Northbank.

But claiming that the City has 'invested heavily in the Jags for decades'?  No, I don't buy that.  The stadium has been really, really, really affordable for the City for what has now essentially been 3 decades. Modest improvements have been made since just before the 2005 Super Bowl, and Khan was a '50/50' partner (if you believe the Jags actually spent all that money on the amphitheater and practice facility... because I don't) in building a quality outdoor ampitheater that the City has been looking at ways to build since 4 Mayors ago, and some other stadium improvements like the scoreboards and luxury seating on the South and North endzones.

It is verifiably accurate to say that stadium spends haven't put a strain on the municipal budget (very little money comes from the General Fund, and are instead paid back from various user fees), and COJ hasn't at any times over the last 30 years had to face the choice of continuing to pay for the stadium, or else cut some essential City service.

[FlaBoy]

I will also add that Florida-Georgia and any stadium concerts in Jacksonville will become a thing of the past if the Jags leave town.

Playing in an NFL stadium has been one of the things that has kept Florida-Georgia from leaving and going onto campus like Auburn-Alabama.

[vicupstate]

I will also add that Florida-Georgia and any stadium concerts in Jacksonville will become a thing of the past if the Jags leave town.

Playing in an NFL stadium has been one of the things that has kept Florida-Georgia from leaving and going onto campus like Auburn-Alabama.

Actually, not having to program around the Jags at all would open up dates for more concerts. Why would GA/FL go to their own stadiums that are not at the same level as Jacksonville's?

[fieldafm]

I will also add that Florida-Georgia and any stadium concerts in Jacksonville will become a thing of the past if the Jags leave town.

Playing in an NFL stadium has been one of the things that has kept Florida-Georgia from leaving and going onto campus like Auburn-Alabama.

Actually, not having to program around the Jags at all would open up dates for more concerts. Why would GA/FL go to their own stadiums that are not at the same level as Jacksonville's?

I can count on my hands how many concerts were held at the Gator Bowl in my lifetime before the Jags. The only one I ever went to was the Rolling Stones in 1989- was too young (and we were too broke anyway) for the Michael Jackson concert. The Jags, via Bold Events, have put on more concerts at TIAA Bank Field (excluding the amphitheater) in the last three years... then COJ put on during the combined administrations of Godbold, Hazzouri, Austin and Delaney.

Hell, the Jags have even been responsible for most of the exhibition soccer matches that have come through over the last decade. COJ basically eliminated its Sports dept, and even the Gator Bowl Association (who took over most of those duties) couldn't fill the void... and has become another aging relic of the past, all but merging itself with the Jaguars (who now sell sponsorships and luxury travel packages for, and split revenue with the GBA).

The Gator Bowl was in pretty poor shape in the years leading up to being awarded the Jags franchise in 1993. The former Mayor Austin admitted even then that events like FL/GA were on their way out the door without significant capital improvements to the stadium... which taxpayers wouldn't have supported for only FL/GA and the Gator Bowl.  If the Jags leave, TIAA Bank Field becomes an obsolete relic like Legions Field in Birmingham.

[CityLife]

I believe the only shows ever held at the old Gator Bowl are:

Elvis-1955 and 1956
Jerry Lee Lewis-1961
The Beatles-1964
Chicago-1971
Boots Randolph-1973
Stones/Eagles-1975
Marshall Tucker/Charlie Daniels/38 Special-1976
The Who-1976
Bo Diddley-1981
The Jacksons-1984
The Stones-1989

[Wacca Pilatka]

CityLife, thanks for the research.  Even independent of the topic at hand, that's historically interesting to know.

[jaxjags]

The damage to the quality of life argument is weak imo. A relatively small segment of Jax currently enjoys any boost to their quality of life as a result of the Jags (i.e. - Those with the disposable income to attend games.) Even for those who do attend games, there are only a few game days a year where they get to enjoy this asset.

To me, the quality of life argument is less about going to 8 football games a year, and more about having something that genuinely ties the region together and gives the community something to rally around collectively. Particularly for a city with Jacksonville's characteristics - 800 square miles without the regional identity of a Miami, Orlando, or even St. Augustine.

In the absence of collective cultural institutions like the Jags, what really makes us a community as opposed to a loose collection of sprawling neighborhoods?

Just personally speaking (and to your point, coming from someone who lives in a ZIP code that the city hasn't neglected for decades), having the Jags in Jacksonville has made me closer to my family, friends, and neighbors (going to games together or having cookouts on Sunday). It's brought my coworkers together (both sharing in the excitement of the 2017 run and bitching about the bad times on Mondays). It gives me a common bond to talk to strangers about here in the city.

One of my favorite quotes, and I wish I had it in front of me, was from John Delaney.

It was from after the Jags' first home game, and he basically said that, for the first time in his life, he saw the Jacksonville community, regardless of race, age, or political differences, standing proudly side-by-side to support something.

One of my fondest memories of working downtown was watching a construction worker in a Blake Bortles jersey standing on top of the Barnett working to restore the roof. People would randomly shout Duval at him, and he'd shout it back every time.

Hard to put a price on little things like that, but I think they serve a higher purpose to a community than a balance sheet can show.

Ken, I strongly agree with this.  The Jaguars give the region and the city a common experience and elevate its national identity.  Yes, it's been a frustrating and disillusioning common experience in recent years.  But I think about Jake Godbold breaking down in tears the day the expansion team was awarded - my doing pretty much the same thing on watching from afar as a diverse Jacksonville audience filled the stands for a Jaguar game on TV - the ecstatic shared experiences of the first Monday night game in Jacksonville, or fans filling the stadium during and after the 1996 playoff win in Denver - even the national awareness of the Duval chant as you mentioned.  It all underscores how much a pro sports team is intertwined in the fabric of a community, especially in an often overlooked, often unfairly reviled, one-pro-sports-team city like this one.  Many of my childhood memories revolve around Jacksonville's long quest for pro football and how it galvanized the city and brought people together.  The wooing of Bud Adams and the Oilers, the USFL Bulls, the big attendance figures and petitions to the NFL for attention for 80s preseason games between the Falcons and Bucs.

I'm also aware that there are quite a few sports commentators who have been outright vindictive in ridiculing Jacksonville, during its quest for a team and now, who would do a collective end-zone dance if the Jaguars left that I think would do significant damage to the city's psyche and national profile.

And while we can cite detached economic studies of what pro sports teams are really worth, and I understand why, I can't discount the intangible benefits that a pro team can bring, and has brought, to Jacksonville.  I think we can't too easily dismiss the tourism benefit with people who travel to Jacksonville for the primary purpose of seeing Jaguar games, as well as the benefit of retaining Florida-Georgia and potentially adding additional events that comes with maintaining the stadium at NFL level.  There's also factors like the tremendous amount of charitable funding that the Weavers and the Jaguars Foundation have pumped into the community.  Yes, it comes with substantial retention costs, and yes, Khan hasn't been nearly as generous as the Weavers.  But without the Weavers' having had an NFL team in town, who would've provided that level of support for numerous civic institutions and restoration projects?

My love is for the city first and the team second, and I don't particularly want to see the city accept a bad deal or sacrifice other services and amenities to prostrate itself before the Jaguars.  But I don't want to see them given up either.  I know how much value the experience of following them has added to my life over the years, even in the many bad seasons, not because it's about the football but because it's about the city

Having grown up here, knowing what the city was like before the Jaguars... and watching City Council meetings on WJCT when the stadium renovations were being debated (many of those Council reps are working for COJ or are still elected officials all these decades later).. and watching the posturing back and forth then... I don't get all worked up when Paul Harden (who was the chief negotiator then as well) or Mark Lamping threaten moving the team.  Wayne Weaver was a sharp guy, and walked away from City Council, twice.

I also know that this city and community are tremendously better since the Jags came here.  Economic development deals back then centered on bringing in call center jobs (that are all gone now) and industries that dumped pollution everywhere.  Jacksonville is a much better city now, has much more of a sense of community now, and economic development deals focus on industries of the future instead of the past.  I do not want to go back to those days. The city LITERALLY stunk back then, as the smells from industry wafted through the city (I lived in between two such factories).

For some old curmudgeons that say Jacksonville was better in the late 80's and early 90's... they are telling lies.  The people that say Jacksonville is better without the Jaguars, are mostly the same NIMBYs that complain that a Mellow Mushroom is going to cause an entire neighborhood to sink into a black hole. 

Believing wholeheartedly that Jacksonville is better with the Jaguars, isn't some denial that the Lot J deal isn't tilted HEAVILY towards the Jaguars and Cordish. Believing in being an NFL city also doesn't mean that one suspends their belief that the Mayor and his administration hasn't acted in the best interests of the people who he was elected to serve... nor does it mean that you also need to believe that its in Jacksonville's best interest to follow this piecemeal approach of breaking up all these real estate development deals into their own separate deals and public asks... until a stadium renovation is even begun to be discussed. Saying yes to a heavily skewed Lot J and then a heavily skewed luxury hotel resort, and then large amounts of money to create some smaller and broken-up parks along the Shipyards site.... puts Jacksonville into a corner where they are so pot-committed, that any stadium deal can be nothing but a rubber-stamp approval. The Jaguars are not putting Jacksonville in an envious position. The Jaguars aren't even putting long-time season ticket members like myself in an envious position by continuing to put a pathetic product on the field. No relationship doesn't have challenges, ebbs and flows and sometimes really tough times when the only way forward is by getting there together.



Nevertheless, anyone arguing for the Jags to take a hike... are the most delusional people in the world.  After over 40 years of calling this place home, I'm not going back to a pre-Jaguars life.  That city was going nowhere, fast.

+ 1000% I think some of the people arguing Jax will be better without the Jags didn't live here in the 80's or 90's. When I moved to Jax the first time in 1988 it was an unknown "backwater" town. I had lived in OH, WI, MD and MA and no one had ever heard of Jacksonville FL, including me. It was a great unknown beach town, but definitely not growing. Examples of the city changing based on the Jags include FIS (and the multiple associated companies, all moving from CA), St. John Town Center, and even a place like Beachwalk with Crystal Lagoon. Non of those exists without Jags. Kind of like "It's a Wonderful Life" without George.

If people want to see Jax as then (and I agree with your statement about never going back), then be the city to lose your NFL team.

[Ken_FSU]

Great posts in this thread today, really enjoyed reading them all!

As a transplant who's only known post-Jags Jacksonville, it's really interesting to read the takes on the city before the NFL arrived.

The Gator Bowl was in pretty poor shape in the years leading up to being awarded the Jags franchise in 1993. The former Mayor Austin admitted even then that events like FL/GA were on their way out the door without significant capital improvements to the stadium... which taxpayers wouldn't have supported for only FL/GA and the Gator Bowl.  If the Jags leave, TIAA Bank Field becomes an obsolete relic like Legions Field in Birmingham.

Preach.

The Citrus Bowl made a pretty serious play for the game in 1993.

Stadium wasn't great and it was further for Georgia, but they offered a huge payout to both schools.

The only way Austin was able to keep the game in the city was through promising $45 million in stadium renovations (it was in the contract that the schools could bail if the renovations weren't complete by 1996), which wouldn't have happened without the Jags.

Also, stumbled upon this 27-year old article from the Chicago Tribune from when Jacksonville was awarded the Jags.

Really interesting to read in light of where we find ourselves with these Lot J negotiations.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1993-12-01-9312010110-story.html

SURPRISE! IT'S JACKSONVILLE IN NFL LANDSLIDE!

By Don Pierson, Tribune Pro Football Writer
CHICAGO TRIBUNE

Dec 1, 1993

Jacksonville won't need a Florida behind it anymore to identify its location. The National Football League made the smallest expansion candidate home of the Jacksonville Jaguars in a surprising landslide vote of owners in Rosemont Tuesday.

Jacksonville joined the previously named Carolina Panthers of Charlotte as the two teams to begin play in 1995 in divisions yet to be determined. The Southeast rose again as former NFL cities St. Louis and Baltimore and 25-year suitor Memphis were spurned.

It was one of the greatest come-from-behind victories in NFL history for Jacksonville and owner J. Wayne Weaver, a women's shoe manufacturer who pulled out of the expansion race July 21 in a dispute with the city over renovation of the Gator Bowl.

The city scrambled to get back in and fans bought 10,000 club seats in 10 days. It was exactly the kind of hard-line approach NFL owners admire, and Jacksonville's selection at the expense of the tradition in St. Louis and Baltimore sent an unmistakable message to other NFL cities: Don't mess with your teams and risk losing them.

The vote was 26-2 after a committee recommendation of 10-2, Jacksonville over Baltimore. St. Louis, once the odds-on favorite, didn't get a vote, not even from Bears President Michael McCaskey, a member of the joint committee on expansion and finance that made the recommendation.

McCaskey said he never had pledged a vote to St. Louis despite the involvement of Bears great Walter Payton.

"I pledged my support to Walter," McCaskey explained. "It became an open question which city would have the best presentation."

Payton's role wavered when St. Louis switched ownership groups in midstream. Although he appeared Tuesday with new prospective owner Stan Kroenke and was going to get a 2 percent share, Payton was an example of the confusion over ownership and the new stadium lease that tumbled St. Louis from front-runner to also-ran.

At the last minute, the Kroenke group tried to calm owners' concerns over potential lawsuits by offering to stay in old Busch Stadium and make up the money difference until lease issues could be resolved in the new domed stadium, now under construction.

"Jacksonville just had a much stronger package to offer," McCaskey said.

Eagles owner Norman Braman and Giants co-owner Bob Tisch voted for Baltimore in committee. The two no votes from the full membership came from Braman and Patriots owner James Orthwein, a St. Louis resident who was a key player in the St. Louis expansion effort.

Commissioner Paul Tagliabue dispelled the notion that Orthwein now will move the Patriots to St. Louis, saying the league has an agreement he won't move as long as he owns them.

Realignment will be addressed in March, and Tagliabue has the power to slot the two teams if consensus isn't reached.

Jacksonville, population 844,000, is the nation's 55th television market, lowest of all candidates and NFL cities. But other small markets such as Buffalo, New Orleans and Green Bay have proven that football fervor has no direct relationship to population, especially in a league that shares television revenue. Jacksonville led the old United States Football League in attendance, and the NFL is the only sport in town.

"There was a strong feeling that Jacksonville is a hotbed of football interest, a feeling that the Southeast is the fastest-growing part of the country and that the NFL, even with a team in Charlotte, is under-represented in the Southeast," said Tagliabue, chairman of the expansion committee.

Jacksonville's single-minded devotion to football and its ability to align the business, banking and government community proved decisive. Weaver's negotiations with the city over stadium renovation and his low-rent agreement enabled him to promise fellow owners a huge visitors' share ranging from $1.1 million the first year to $1.39 by the fifth.

The former CEO of Nine West Inc., and owner of Shoe Carnival lives in Connecticut and was criticized as a carpetbagger when he pulled out of the race in July, but Weaver was a hero in Florida and in Rosemont on Tuesday.

"I think our group was very optimistic from the beginning," Weaver said.

Prospective Memphis owner Billy Dunavant said the visitor payout was "a big factor." Dunavant said he would pursue other NFL teams.

McCaskey admitted the shifting St. Louis ownership picture "didn't help them. I don't want to say it hurt them, but stack them up against Wayne Weaver and his group and you say, `These guys have their act together and they look strong.' "

Since Jacksonville has pursued an NFL team the last 15 years, five owners have used the city to improve their own stadium deals-the Colts' Bob Irsay, the Falcons' Rankin Smith, the Oilers' Bud Adams, former Saints owner John Mecom and the Cardinals' Bill Bidwill.

Jacksonville's media donated $500,000 of free advertising during the club-seat ticket drive in late August that Weaver demanded before he would return. One ad promised: "It will be like having the Florida-Georgia game in Jacksonville 10 times a year!"

Dallas owner Jerry Jones summed up the prevailing sentiment: "I think it would be remiss of any city to not step up and do everything they can to keep an NFL team from moving."