The Ford on Bay

[heights unknown]

Another example of Jax's phobia when it comes to high rises, and a gross underutilization of precious water-front real estate.

High-rises don't have a viable market in Jax. You can't build what the market won't support, and replacing a vacant structure with a mid-rise apartment building is a net benefit.

We're not Miami, we don't need to pretend to be.

Why not "pretend to be?" If city leaders would do their jobs, and do the right thing for the city, we wouldn't have to pretend, and the demand would be there for high rises or anything else that would be offered or put on the table for the public.

[heights unknown]

Spandrel got the nod from the selection committee, per the Daily Record.

First, probably should have swapped Phases 1 and 2. With that in mind...

Excellent. Now on to Phase 2: Convince Hyatt to claim their right of first refusal in order to build an exhibition hall.

Spandrel didn't include a purchase price for the land in their proposal, but I think they're probably expecting to get it pretty cheaply from the city based on their statements about requesting incentives in line with other downtown riverfront projects. It might not take much for Hyatt to exercise their ROFR and match on the old Annex property.

Might be a long time though, if ever, before Hyatt actually broke ground on a convention hall.

At this point, when it comes to the downtown core, I kind of favor path of least resistance in terms of what's actually going to get shovels in the ground. Beggars can't be choosers, and if the choice is to get something moving at the site now versus Hyatt sitting on it for a decade and hoping to work out a deal with the city on a convention center, I'd rather just see the apartments.

Downtown has lost so much momentum in the last two years. Feels like we've got 50 delayed or stalled projects (Laura Street Trio, Jones Furniture, Ambassador Hotel, old Independent Life building, Landing, Hyatt Place, Berkman II, Laura Street Garage, Main Street pocket/dog park, Barnett retail, Aetna apartments, Mathers Social/Joysticks) and almost no significant movement in the CBD in a roaring economy.

We gotta get some real momentum going ASAP before the window passes, even if it's not absolutely ideal.

I remember years back, yes, and in this forum, someone posted an article, or it may have been an opinion, on what downtown Jax would look like in the future. One of the things they said, or pointed out, was to forget about skyscrapers and/or going vertical, and that a lot of construction downtown would be low to midrise or even lower. They even posted a rendering that showed little to none high rise vertical construction...at all. Can't remember who posted that, or where it came from, but being a high rise fan, when I saw it, I discounted it and said, "no, that won't happen." But what has happened in downtown Jax in the last decade or so, they predicted accurately in their crystal ball. Not only is their a starvation of high rise, tall's or super tall's (which doesn't define a city or downtown), but also a starvation and hunger for approved and under construction new developments, etc. I hope it changes very quickly because I too fear that Jax is again missing a very important and vital window of opportunity relative to the current economic and financial climate not only nation wide, but also worldwide.

[Peter Griffin]

One of the things they said, or pointed out, was to forget about skyscrapers and/or going vertical, and that a lot of construction downtown would be low to midrise or even lower. They even posted a rendering that showed little to none high rise vertical construction...at all.

This seems to be the most cost effective method, and it's a decent fit for Jacksonville. We're a midsized city of medium density, midrise apartments actually INCREASE the population density of Downtown. Highrise condos and apartments in DT Jax don't really seem to fit the market, midsize is better than what's there now (aka: not much) and fits the context of our downtown.

In short, midrise is a good thing and seems to be a good fit for OUR downtown.

[thelakelander]

The best way to get more high-rise residential in downtown right now is adaptive reuse of existing office buildings (ex. 11 East, Barnett or the Old Independent Life Building, etc.). This is why it was short sighted to demo the city hall annex. That's built density you're simply never going to get back and if COJ is willing to use the value of an existing property as the public subsidy, it could go a long way to eliminating the adaptive reuse financial gap for some of these publicly owned assets.

[Peter Griffin]

The best way to get more high-rise residential in downtown right now is adaptive reuse of existing office buildings (ex. 11 East, Barnett or the Old Independent Life Building, etc.). This is why it was short sighted to demo the city hall annex. That's built density you're simply never going to get back and if COJ is willing to use the value of an existing property as the public subsidy, it could go a long way to eliminating the adaptive reuse financial gap for some of these publicly owned assets.

Haven't we kind of run out of high-rise vacant buildings to reactivate?

Outside of that, mid-rise works and fits our city, but I see people bemoan it here like we need to have every new DT parcel be built up as a Miami-style high-rise condo, which just isn't a good fit for our current population or projected population

[thelakelander]

The Old Independent Life building has a proposal but work hasn't began yet. The JEA Tower (Universal Marion Building) will be empty in a couple of years when JEA moves into their new tower. Then we have quite a few vacant older mid-rise office structures in the 5 to 7-story range that could possibly be converted into housing. They include the Furchgott's, Exchange Bank, Hilderbrant and Jones Brothers Furniture buildings. Combined, you could probably get a couple hundred units in these buildings alone.

[Ken_FSU]

CBRE on the current viability of new high rise in DT Jax:

CBRE Jacksonville, the real estate firm that marketed The Ford on Bay, says it marketed the site to 15,000 development companies nationwide.

Senior Vice President Cliff Taylor and Vice President Joe Ayers told the committee that developers considering the property for high-rise and midrise uses dropped out of consideration after analyzing the market.  A "garden product" is lower than midrise.

"We candidly thought there would be groups from all three  of those categories who would look at the site and make an attempt to make them work because of the desirability of the location on the river and where they are positioned in the core," Taylor said.

Spandrel and The Related Group submitted the only bids.

Spandrel's total project cost is estimated at $262,000 per unit, according to CBRE. The real estate firm's initial estimate for a garden product at the Ford on Bay site was $225,000 per unit.

Taylor said the added cost could justify the city giving the land to the developer at no cost, which is what Spandrel has proposed.

[Steve]

The best way to get more high-rise residential in downtown right now is adaptive reuse of existing office buildings (ex. 11 East, Barnett or the Old Independent Life Building, etc.). This is why it was short sighted to demo the city hall annex. That's built density you're simply never going to get back and if COJ is willing to use the value of an existing property as the public subsidy, it could go a long way to eliminating the adaptive reuse financial gap for some of these publicly owned assets.

While I agree it was shortsighted to demo the annex, I'm really not sure how many units you'd get in there compared to a mid-rise that used the whole block. The building say back quite a distance from the street, and other than the first 2 floors the floor plates were really small.

[marcuscnelson]

Haven't we kind of run out of high-rise vacant buildings to reactivate?

I wonder why...

[thelakelander]

I'm totally confused to why we'd think we'd have a market for high rise construction of any type. There haven't been tower cranes in the Northbank in well over a decade. I believe that the most recent project to have them was the Duval County Courthouse. Before that, it's likely Berkman 2.

Currently, the place is littered with surface parking lots, pedestrian hostile streets, poorly maintained public spaces and very limited clustering to stimulate any consistent pedestrian activity. We've just reached a point where garden style stick frame apartments work from a market perspective. I know we tend to not want to believe or hear it but we have to learn to crawl and walk before we can run.

[Steve]

I'm totally confused to why we'd think we'd have a market for high rise construction of any type. There haven't been tower cranes in the Northbank in well over a decade. I believe that the most recent project to have them was the Duval County Courthouse. Before that, it's likely Berkman 2.

Currently, the place is littered with surface parking lots, pedestrian hostile streets, poorly maintained public spaces and very limited clustering to stimulate any consistent pedestrian activity. We've just reached a point where garden style stick frame apartments work from a market perspective. I know we tend to not want to believe or hear it but we have to learn to crawl and walk before we can run.

In the short term I'm okay with it as long as they're well designed at the street level. Density is nice, but let's get a few 5 story buildings that have a strong ground level retail game and go from there.

[thelakelander]

The best way to get more high-rise residential in downtown right now is adaptive reuse of existing office buildings (ex. 11 East, Barnett or the Old Independent Life Building, etc.). This is why it was short sighted to demo the city hall annex. That's built density you're simply never going to get back and if COJ is willing to use the value of an existing property as the public subsidy, it could go a long way to eliminating the adaptive reuse financial gap for some of these publicly owned assets.

While I agree it was shortsighted to demo the annex, I'm really not sure how many units you'd get in there compared to a mid-rise that used the whole block. The building say back quite a distance from the street, and other than the first 2 floors the floor plates were really small.

The floor plates were small for office space but probably perfect for residential. The total number of units would be dependent of the size of them. Also, we'll never know but I'd assume new infill at the site could have been possible.

Now that the annex is gone, I'd favor figuring out a way to get an exhibition hall there (Spandrel can take the courthouse site) because stick frame apartments can go anywhere in downtown. Once we blow the opportunity on this site, we're screwed on the CC issue for at least another generation, which ties up the Prime Osborn's potential, as well as the Shipyards.

[vicupstate]

Yeah, there is no reason a two story (or more) addition at the City Hall Annex wouldn't have worked to replace the building's setback. Would be a great location for an addition to the Elbow bar district.   

[thelakelander]

An interesting tidbit from the article......because if we're logical, we all know there's no market for a 15,000 to 25,000 square foot grocery store there, along the with the urban bodega proposed at the Trio, the 20,000 grocery proposed at  the old JEA Building, the existing Harvey's on Market Street and the existing Fresh Market in Brooklyn.

A proposed grocery store would be held until Phase II when the project has residential density, Scharf said.

525 apartments at build-out won't make a full line grocery store viable.

In an interview after the meeting, Scharf said a typical urban grocer needs 15,000 to 25,000 square feet of space, but Spandrel would examine the market feasibility before committing to a size or announcing an operator.

"We've spoken with local brokers, but I think it's premature at this point to comment further on specific tenant interest," Scharf said.

He told the committee if a grocer does not work for the development, Spandrel could consider a food hall, gallery exhibition space or meeting space for guests at the neighboring Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront hotel.

Both of these alternative options are more realistic.

[tufsu1]

Spandrel didn't include a purchase price for the land in their proposal, but I think they're probably expecting to get it pretty cheaply from the city

They are proposing the land be given to them for free