The Ford on Bay

[MusicMan]

Anyone who is familiar with Jacksonville has seen the Berkman II standing for over 10 years, I think that speaks to "reputation" pretty well.

[simms3]

Overall I'm happy with the Spandrel proposal, from the architecture to the density to the uses and the plan.  It seems feasible and I think it is actually a decent replacement for the ugly brutalist high-rise product that was there (I'm not sure how feasible or practical a repurposing of those former government buildings would have been in this town - the replacement cost of the apartments that Spandrel will put up is still low enough where it probably made more sense to build new, designed for mixed-use/apartments from the start, which allows for the rents that they think they can achieve (probably around $2/sf) versus the high cost to repurpose the CH and CH-annex (probably had some asbestos remediation and other high cost issues) with a hit to rents if the product is deemed inferior.

This is assuming the damn thing gets built, but I have hope and faith that it will.


Now on to opinions and observations about boating in Jax/NE FL.

Dumb question from a non-boater:

Why is this?

It's not. 

There is a lot of boat traffic downtown on the weekends.  People aren't stopping, but there is traffic.  Plus we have much more water per capita than most other parts of Florida so people aren't as concentrated.  You can run down the St John's, Black Creek, Doctors Lake, ICW, numerous tidal creeks, Nassau River, inlets Etc.

Fort Myers has miles and miles and miles of dredge and fill canals and a ton of waterfront homes (boats) in a very concentrated area.  That coupled with a bunch of well off retirees that can run boats all day isn't a normal situation. 

Compared to other waterfront cities in this state, there is NOT a lot of active boating going on throughout the year.  A lot of the marina boats docked up here are larger boats (35'++) owned by people who live in South FL.  It wasn't mostly NE FL residents who filled area marinas as they were built over the last 10-15 years.

Since moving back, I have taken my own boat out probably about every other weekend.  Often I am the ONLY boat on the entire river that I can see.  And we have had a warm, sunny winter with beautiful weather and great temps for boating.  "Cold" and winter is NOT an excuse for the level of inactivity in this part of the state.

It is true that right now there is nowhere to dock downtown.  It is also true that it takes a LONG time to get from a riverfront location south of downtown to the Intracoastal or the ocean.  Neither of these are excuses for why there is just no boating on the actual river.

There is substantially more boat traffic along the Intracoastal and I get the sense that there are simply more cold weather transplants who have access to a boat closer to the beach, than on the river.  I am guessing that lends itself to the obvious increase in usage of the waterways closer to the beach and down into St. Augustine (because they are NOT taking this beautiful Florida weather and a waterfront location for granted as is so apparent with most of the city south of downtown).

People on the river just don't use their boats so much and frankly, it's a shame.  So much of the world would kill to have the access!

[vicupstate]

The city had to pay for asbestos removal in both buildings anyway, so they could be demolished, so it was a sunk cost either way. They also had to pay for the remaining cost of demo such as the explosion and debris removal.

[MusicMan]

"Compared to other waterfront cities in this state, there is NOT a lot of active boating going on throughout the year.  A lot of the marina boats docked up here are larger boats (35'++) owned by people who live in South FL.  It wasn't mostly NE FL residents who filled area marinas as they were built over the last 10-15 years.

Since moving back, I have taken my own boat out probably about every other weekend.  Often I am the ONLY boat on the entire river that I can see."

That is exactly what I thought when I carefully scoped it out this weekend, super calm conditions and one boat out there. Was there a solid boating turnout on Sunday for the Food and Wine Festival under I 95? I think you can tie up down there?

[acme54321]

LOL.  The highs were in the upper 60s all weekend and it was blowing 10-15 on Sunday.  That's not comfortable in any boat owned by us mere mortals.  Unless you have a yacht or a larger boat with some cover from the wind it wouldn't have been enjoyable. 

Might be a different story this weekend, especially Sunday and Monday with highs approaching 80 and winds under 10.  I'll probably be out there on Monday.

[MusicMan]

Take some pics and post

[Ken_FSU]

Spandrel got the nod from the selection committee, per the Daily Record.

First, probably should have swapped Phases 1 and 2. With that in mind...

Excellent. Now on to Phase 2: Convince Hyatt to claim their right of first refusal in order to build an exhibition hall.

Spandrel didn't include a purchase price for the land in their proposal, but I think they're probably expecting to get it pretty cheaply from the city based on their statements about requesting incentives in line with other downtown riverfront projects. It might not take much for Hyatt to exercise their ROFR and match on the old Annex property.

Might be a long time though, if ever, before Hyatt actually broke ground on a convention hall.

At this point, when it comes to the downtown core, I kind of favor path of least resistance in terms of what's actually going to get shovels in the ground. Beggars can't be choosers, and if the choice is to get something moving at the site now versus Hyatt sitting on it for a decade and hoping to work out a deal with the city on a convention center, I'd rather just see the apartments.

Downtown has lost so much momentum in the last two years. Feels like we've got 50 delayed or stalled projects (Laura Street Trio, Jones Furniture, Ambassador Hotel, old Independent Life building, Landing, Hyatt Place, Berkman II, Laura Street Garage, Main Street pocket/dog park, Barnett retail, Aetna apartments, Mathers Social/Joysticks) and almost no significant movement in the CBD in a roaring economy.

We gotta get some real momentum going ASAP before the window passes, even if it's not absolutely ideal.

[thelakelander]

^I think the devil is still in the details for sites like this. Assuming they get into the mix, I don't know much about what Hyatt will do at this point (even an exhibition hall box could be mixed use with apartments/hotel/commercial space on top....sort of like Seattle's), other than what's been presented by Spandrel, which will require some time itself, given the request for incentives and the admission of a phase two being dependent on market conditions. Quite frankly, like the Landing site, District, Shipyards, etc., this is a conceptual vision that I don't see breaking ground any time soon (ex. within the next 12 months). The imminent projects appear to be those that are pushing past DDRB review, filing permits and getting started without all the media fluff and early requests for massive public incentives.

[Ken_FSU]

^Looks like they'll have a little time to figure it out.

Per the JBJ, looks like Spandrel might only be given the waterfront parcel for now, while the city tries to figure out how they're going to get around Hyatt's claim on the Annex parcel identified for Phase II.

The Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront, which neighbors the Ford on Bay, has caused a wrinkle in the bid process. The hotel has the first right of refusal on one of the three parcels the city is soliciting, which stems from an existing development agreement.

John Sawyer, an attorney at the Office of General Counsel, told the committee the city would prefer more time to figure out how to resolve the situation with the Hyatt. Spandrel, which would conduct two-phase construction starting with the parcel to which the Hyatt has no claim, would give them that time, Sawyer said.

A Spandrel representative said the grocery would be included in Phase II, and no grocer had yet agreed to occupy the space.

He advised that if DIA moves forward with Spandrel, its final agreement would only be for the first parcel, so as not to trigger the Hyatt's first right of refusal. Spandrel could be given assurances to the second parcel, but it could not be given an option to purchase it without hitting the Hyatt's trigger, if the DIA proceeded down that route.

[thelakelander]

It seems this should have been figured out a long time ago. The big question that needs to answered is if the Hyatt's owners want the lot and if so, what are their intentions for it? As for Spandrel, they're planning a two phased development and no one knows if that second phase will ever materialize. Work out a deal for the courthouse parcel, allowing them to move forward with a Phase 1. But before trying to "get out" of the Hyatt thing, we need to first get an idea of where the Hyatt's head is at. If they are interested in an exhibition hall of some sort, that's not something we should try to discourage. No matter what the extremely long term and unfunded visions are for the Shipyards. They could put up a box that could fill the city's convention center needs for the next 20-30 years because it will be well more than a decade before a convention center the size of what's shown on those Shipyards renderings is needed, funded and completed.

[Ken_FSU]

It seems this should have been figured out a long time ago.

Maybe even before we spent $5 million to demolish the Annex and prepare a site for development that we potentially can't actually offer up for development 

[MusicMan]

"Downtown has lost so much momentum in the last two years. Feels like we've got 50 delayed or stalled projects (Laura Street Trio, Jones Furniture, Ambassador Hotel, old Independent Life building, Landing, Hyatt Place, Berkman II, Laura Street Garage, Main Street pocket/dog park, Barnett retail, Aetna apartments, Mathers Social/Joysticks) and almost no significant movement in the CBD in a roaring economy."

This is so true. My question: is this by design?  Many folks have said the only way you end up with such a dysfunctional CBD is on purpose, and what we are looking at in terms of lost mojo seems to support the theory that Jacksonville's old money and well heeled interest's DO NOT want to see downtown succeed.

[thelakelander]

^Feels things fell a bit off track when Brian Hughes became the interim DIA CEO after Audra Wallace left. That's when all the crazy demo stuff started happening.

[jaxlongtimer]

^Feels things fell a bit off track when Brian Hughes became the interim DIA CEO after Audra Wallace left. That's when all the crazy demo stuff started happening.

After 8 years of Curry, his legacy is more likely to be dozens of empty lots than any new additions to the Downtown skyline.  And, this during the longest economic expansion since WWII.  Have to work hard to screw things up so badly but Jax seems to have a natural ability to do so.

It's also ironic that, being the former State chair of the Republican party, the party of "business friendly successes," he is an abject failure at having any while Democratic mayor Jake Godbold is being celebrated for same.  Curry can't even claim success in his favorite business category, sports, as the Jags move a second game to London.

[Steve]

Quote from the Daily Record Article:

He told the committee if a grocer does not work for the development, Spandrel could consider a food hall, gallery exhibition space or meeting space for guests at the neighboring Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront hotel.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-committee-recommends-spandrel-for-the-ford-on-bay

Wouldn't the best thing then to be for Spandrel and the Hyatt owners to talk and potentially present COJ with a proposal together for the 220 E Bay site? Hyatt right now has all of the cards in this, but development is likely better for them than a vacant lot and this COULD be a win-win for all.