Florida's Major Downtowns: How Does Jax Compare?

[jaxnyc79]

The size of the official downtown isn't the issue. The issue is a failure to cluster within that area. There would be no issue if we'd stuck to plans to develop in clusters as we do in the successful urban core neighborhoods. Development in the Stadium District and Brooklyn is a good thing especially when they're done to enhance those areas specifically and better connect them to adjacent districts. But it wouldn't have the same impact on the Downtown Core that developments within the core would have, and shouldn't be treated as if it would. That's been our bigger issue.

Size is an issue if DIA funds are being spread too thin, due to the large area it is responsible for. Development will happen in adjacent urban districts (like it does in other cities), without additional public fingers in the cookie jar if the market and local public policies support it.

Funding isn't the issue either. Cities like Tampa that have a smaller downtown also have districts like the Channelside and Ybor that have  leadership and planning, and soak up funding that could go to downtown proper. The difference is that the model forces the city to cluster in the individual areas and focus on what each district needs individually. The same thing could be accomplished with one authority that's structured to cluster and distribute funding among the districts. In fact, it could even be a better model. But it's not going to happen if we're just moving the money around anywhere in the 4 square mile area and call it all Downtown investment.

So it sounds like you don't take issue with the size of Downtown or even the geographic coverage of potential incentives arrangements.  Rather, you believe the DIA should spend more time funding more dense, catalytic, mixed-use developments? 

[thelakelander]

The DIA could spend 100% of their time focusing on the real downtown if there was not a policy in place making them responsible for a 3.9 square mile area we call "downtown". Everything to overcome the issue of a "downtown" entity's tools and resources being spread out too thin all stems from a policy decision that was counterproductive to the quick implementation of a vibrant pedestrian scale district. To compare the success of DT Jax with and other city's revitalization needs to take issues like this into consideration.

[I-10east]

THE END IS NEAR!!! ALL HOPE HAS BEEN LOST FOR JAX!!!

[thelakelander]

No hope is lost. Just don't expect a downtown with streets filled with pedestrians until we do the things needed to make that happen.

[Adam White]

The DIA could spend 100% of their time focusing on the real downtown if there was not a policy in place making them responsible for a 3.9 square mile area we call "downtown". Everything to overcome the issue of a "downtown" entity's tools and resources being spread out too thin all stems from a policy decision that was counterproductive to the quick implementation of a vibrant pedestrian scale district. To compare the success of DT Jax with and other city's revitalization needs to take issues like this into consideration.

I see what you mean now. I guess it would make more sense to restrict the definition of 'downtown' to a more compact area and focus on that. Once it is successful and the density starts to radiate out from it, the definition of 'downtown' could be expanded. It sounds like we did it backwards.

[jaxnyc79]

The DIA could spend 100% of their time focusing on the real downtown if there was not a policy in place making them responsible for a 3.9 square mile area we call "downtown". Everything to overcome the issue of a "downtown" entity's tools and resources being spread out too thin all stems from a policy decision that was counterproductive to the quick implementation of a vibrant pedestrian scale district. To compare the success of DT Jax with and other city's revitalization needs to take issues like this into consideration.

I'm sorry, what is the "real" downtown?  And are you saying the DIA's focus is scattered because of the convention center RFP mishap or because it appears to support Khans plans to the east?  Or would you rather the city limit its incentives awards to a "strip" or "corridor" that becomes...well, becomes what?  What corridor (including its property owners and investors) wins that designation?

[thelakelander]

The real downtown is the actual dense central business district. It's the place that was fully built out at the pedestrian scale prior to WW2. It's home to all the old large office towers, hotels and flagship department stores. It's the place people first think about when they claim "downtown" isn't as vibrant as downtowns in other cities. It has little to do with the Jags or convention center. LaVilla and Brooklyn are adjacent black neighborhoods that were largely razed as recently as the 1990s and 2000s. The Southbank was a part of the City of South Jacksonville. Much of that riverfront was shipyards prior to 1960s/70s urban renewal.

[jaxnyc79]

I often think of the term "downtown" as more symbology than lifestyle attribute, and as the focal point or pulse or heartbeat of the city area it represents.   It's not unreasonable to think that downtown Jax is somewhat larger than those of other Florida municipalities because the geographic span of the city it epitomizes is so much more vast.  If you want to narrow the DIA's scope, that's all well and good, but if that's the case, then to what ends is DIA giving out incentives?  To make the current high-rise CBD more of a mixed-use zone with more high-rise residential, to incentivize entertainment uses, to make it 24-hour, to lower vacancies?  I'm trying to understand why the DIA's scope is really an issue.  Frankly, I still believe downtown Jax has brand sickness, in that outside investors and developers just don't take it seriously nor do they take its representation seriously.  Consequently downtown isn't on the radars of relevant pools of capital.  The capital pool interested in downtown is too shallow, and from what I can tell, relatively little is being done to change that perception in a compelling way.  In national real estate circles, Jax is still known as a place for laid-back country club and beachside living.  No one recognizes its core or inner city as having any real or meaningful mojo.  So exciting new development product fails to surface except from long-standing good ole boys like rummel who suck the incentives well dry and are one of only a few interested players.

[thelakelander]

I often think of the term "downtown" as more symbology than lifestyle attribute, and as the focal point or pulse or heartbeat of the city area it represents.   It's not unreasonable to think that downtown Jax is somewhat larger than those of other Florida municipalities because the geographic span of the city it epitomizes is so much more vast.  If you want to narrow the DIA's scope, that's all well and good, but if that's the case, then to what ends is DIA giving out incentives?

I don't think it matters what you call or brand it, the city's historic CBD isn't the sports district, Brooklyn or LaVilla. If your CBD needs an extra layer of government to assist in revitalization, no problem. However, expect their efforts to take longer if they're also charged with being the keeper of a much larger area.

I'm trying to understand why the DIA's scope is really an issue.

At this point, I don't know how to further explain how being spead too thin can negatively impact the effort of what an entity is charged to do and how that would directly lead to the actual central business district being sleepy despite billions spent on downtown revitalization since 1950.

Frankly, I still believe downtown Jax has brand sickness, in that outside investors and developers just don't take it seriously nor do they take its representation seriously.

The brand would be better if the actual CBD was. Why the CBD isn't already, after +50 years of revitalization efforts, has a lot to do with poor policy practices, including scale.

Consequently downtown isn't on the radars of relevant pools of capital.  The capital pool interested in downtown is too shallow, and from what I can tell, relatively little is being done to change that perception in a compelling way.  In national real estate circles, Jax is still known as a place for laid-back country club and beachside living. No one recognizes its core or inner city as having any real or meaningful mojo.  So exciting new development product fails to surface except from long-standing good ole boys like rummel who suck the incentives well dry and are one of only a few interested players.

I don't think this is true. While I can't speak for the past, most of the developments under way right now are by outside investment groups and developers. Unfortunately,  the big gimmick stuff requiring millions in incentives gets the press coverage.

[jaxnyc79]

CBD and downtown aren't always interchangeable terms
Some healthy CBDs are mere high rise office parks

[I-10east]

^^^Give an example please? Because most equate the CBD (usually the tallest buildings in the city) as downtown; Los Angeles is an example.

[bl8jaxnative]

Downtown Jacksonville is just fine as it is.

[thelakelander]

CBD and downtown aren't always interchangeable terms
Some healthy CBDs are mere high rise office parks

I'm not talking about the name of a place. I'm talking about the proper application of public policy.

[thelakelander]

Downtown Jacksonville is just fine as it is.

I'm sure there are those that are fine with it and would not like to see another dime spent there.

[jaxnyc79]

^^^Give an example please? Because most equate the CBD (usually the tallest buildings in the city) as downtown; Los Angeles is an example.

Many cities have a central business district located away from commercial or cultural city centers or downtowns.  London's downtown or city center is a cultural or historic hub whereas its CBDs are elsewhere.  Midtown Manhattan is more of a CBD than downtown Manhattan.  Berlin has multiple CBDs as do Asian megacities. My point was that downtowns (as cultural and historic hubs) do exist as much more than just central business districts in many places around the world.  A city can define its downtown and its ambitions for its center in many ways.  One can have a gleaming sky-scraping Office Park filled with workers and low vacancy rates, only used for office work, and still consider it a successful business district.  Still others will say, we want downtown to be more than a successful office park.  Rather, it should be our cultural and social and historical hub as well as our chief center of business.  If scoping in a stadium district which represents the only time the region assembles in mass Unity to support its home team or to dance to its favorite musical acts, accomplishes the social hub objective, then so be it.  Same thing with scoping in a historic black neighborhood; if the city believes it to be a defining feature of the region's history and identity< go for it.  Yes Jax has torn down tons of LaVilla buildings, but the Prime Osborn is there and is pretty amazing in my opinion, and if the zone around that architectural gem is kept it as part of the city's center (aka downtown), that's not insane to me.