Florida's Major Downtowns: How Does Jax Compare?

[jaxnyc79]

CBD and downtown aren't always interchangeable terms
Some healthy CBDs are mere high rise office parks

I'm not talking about the name of a place. I'm talking about the proper application of public policy.

You're talking names first - DIA should focus on "the real downtown "

[thelakelander]

I think you've misunderstood the entire point I've been trying to make out. Call it uptown, financial district, CBD, downtown....the name itself doesn't matter. Instead I'm talking about what it takes to quickly breathe life back into the city's historic heart of mixed-use activity and how an entity established to do just that, can struggle in it's efforts when spread too thin (due to also being charged with covering areas outside of that heart).

[thelakelander]

Maybe I can better explain it through Downtown Vision's map:



The DIA's boundaries are highlighted in blue. Highlighted in orange, DVI's boundaries are more reflective of the traditional downtown. Most of the cities mentioned as leaving DT Jax in the dust officially recognize and concentrate their downtown revitalization efforts in areas closer in size to DVI's boundary, not the DIA's.

When people say that downtown Jacksonville is not active or vibrant, it's not the sports complex or the shipyards near the Mathews Bridge they're talking about. It's not Brooklyn either. It's that historic urbanized heart of the city highlighted in orange. If the DIA's focus and resources were limited to activating the area within DVI's boundaries, it would be a hell of a lot more vibrant and active than it is today. That vibrancy would have a direct positive impact on the image an outsider has towards downtown. So when we ponder why is DT Jax so slow in comparison to peer communities, scale and inclusion of residential and industrial areas that have never been downtown (or whatever someone wants to call it) has to be considered. That's basically, the main point I was trying to get across in regards to the conversation.

[jaxnyc79]

I think you've misunderstood the entire point I've been trying to make out. Call it uptown, financial district, CBD, downtown....the name itself doesn't matter. Instead I'm talking about what it takes to quickly breathe life back into the city's historic heart of mixed-use activity and how an entity established to do just that, can struggle in it's efforts when spread too thin (due to also being charged with covering areas outside of that heart).

I get the gist of your point; I'm just taking issue with some of the point and also clarifying the communication of some of it.  Your initial link referenced size and scale of downtown Jax versus other Florida metros and whether DIA is spread too thin because of downtown's size.  I would've compared the mandate, governance, and operation of DIA versus other City Authorities as a more meaningful analysis of whether it's spread too thin.  You've possibly done this in prior content and I missed it.  I don't believe Jax's 3.9 square miles and some incremental spatial excess over other Florida downtowns to be that big a deal.  I can maybe agree with the point that DIA should narrow its mandate and perhaps start to focus its resources on just, say, the new innovation corridor or some other narrowly defined DIA sub-zone of Downtown, whilst the rest of downtown benefits from that sub-zone's ripple effect.  Issue with that of course is suddenly this narrow zone sees an even greater spike in real estate pricing and maybe the barriers to entry for non-insiders gets a tad higher. 
The lakelander - are you an investor in the elbow or landing, or economically linked with those places personally?  No big deal if you are, just curious.

[jaxnyc79]

Maybe I can better explain it through Downtown Vision's map:



The DIA's boundaries are highlighted in blue. Highlighted in orange, DVI's boundaries are more reflective of the traditional downtown. Most of the cities mentioned as leaving DT Jax in the dust officially recognize and concentrate their downtown revitalization efforts in areas closer in size to DVI's boundary, not the DIA's.

When people say that downtown Jacksonville is not active or vibrant, it's not the sports complex or the shipyards near the Mathews Bridge they're talking about. It's not Brooklyn either. It's that historic urbanized heart of the city highlighted in orange. If the DIA's focus and resources were limited to activating the area within DVI's boundaries, it would be a hell of a lot more vibrant and active than it is today. That vibrancy would have a direct positive impact on the image an outsider has towards downtown. So when we ponder why is DT Jax so slow in comparison to peer communities, scale and inclusion of residential and industrial areas that have never been downtown (or whatever someone wants to call it) has to be considered. That's basically, the main point I was trying to get across in regards to the conversation.

Again, I do understand.  In the past, the city has been obsessed with gateways into the DVI definition of core.  And so the coverage of revitalization efforts is vast.  It's unclear to me  how the city defines ultimate success, block by block, in the Northbank core.  If we change the DIA's mandate to strictly involve re-purposing and re-use of historic building stock in an area defined by (whatever you want), then I can get behind that.

[thelakelander]

I think you've misunderstood the entire point I've been trying to make out. Call it uptown, financial district, CBD, downtown....the name itself doesn't matter. Instead I'm talking about what it takes to quickly breathe life back into the city's historic heart of mixed-use activity and how an entity established to do just that, can struggle in it's efforts when spread too thin (due to also being charged with covering areas outside of that heart).

I get the gist of your point; I'm just taking issue with some of the point and also clarifying the communication of some of it.  Your initial link referenced size and scale of downtown Jax versus other Florida metros and whether DIA is spread too thin because of downtown's size.  I would've compared the mandate, governance, and operation of DIA versus other City Authorities as a more meaningful analysis of whether it's spread too thin.  You've possibly done this in prior content and I missed it.

You're free to do that. I'd be interested to see what you can find. Whatever it is, for the other cities, it will be within the confines of a much more limited land area. The maps I put together are basically the boundaries their "DIA" counterparts work within.

I don't believe Jax's 3.9 square miles and some incremental spatial excess over other Florida downtowns to be that big a deal.  I can maybe agree with the point that DIA should narrow its mandate and perhaps start to focus its resources on just, say, the new innovation corridor or some other narrowly defined DIA sub-zone of Downtown, whilst the rest of downtown benefits from that sub-zone's ripple effect.

I don't believe these are mutually exclusive points. If you can maybe agree on the DIA possibly narrowing its focus/start, etc., you've basically agreed that there is some type of negative impact in previously spreading its resources across a much larger area.

Issue with that of course is suddenly this narrow zone sees an even greater spike in real estate pricing and maybe the barriers to entry for non-insiders gets a tad higher.

Is it? Has this been the case with the other communities? DIA aside, demolition of existing building stock is perhaps the biggest entry barrier for non-insiders in downtown Jax. When small storefronts are continuously razed for surface parking lots, you basically start to limit your market to those who can afford or have the political capital to construct larger projects. As a result, your craft breweries, art studios, galleries, start-up restaurants, end up going to places where cheap building stock (in comparison) still exists (ex. Five Points, Edgewood Avenue, CoRK Arts District, Rail Yard District, 8th & Main, etc.).
 

The lakelander - are you an investor in the elbow or landing, or economically linked with those places personally?  No big deal if you are, just curious.

No. I do own some properties in Springfield. I am a planner though. In my professional experience, clustering, complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting creates synergy and vibrancy faster in walkable districts as opposed to spreading your efforts too thin. Thus, I'm a true believer that instead of recreating the wheel, if downtown Jax is to become vibrancy now, as opposed to 30 years from now, a more concentrated effort of investment is required.

[thelakelander]

Again, I do understand.  In the past, the city has been obsessed with gateways into the DVI definition of core.  And so the coverage of revitalization efforts is vast.

The negative of not being willing to accept and promote your historical identity (the obsession of urban renewal), ended up with the elimination of LaVilla, Hansontown, Brooklyn, and the wharves. Durkeeville, Springfield and the Rail Yard District would all be moonscape by now, if they had been "annexed" like these nationally significant black neighborhoods were. More reason to limit the scope, IMO!

It's unclear to me  how the city defines ultimate success, block by block, in the Northbank core.  If we change the DIA's mandate to strictly involve re-purposing and re-use of historic building stock in an area defined by (whatever you want), then I can get behind that.

Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely that a higher focus on re-purposing and re-use of historic building stock takes place. Right now, I don't think the Northbank core is a priority. If something pops up....cool but the focus is the stadium area for the foreseeable future. We actually talk about razing the city hall annex and old county courthouse as if that's economic development and revitalization.

[Tacachale]

For anyone still confused by the names, we did an article on them a while ago. There are multiple definitions of "Downtown" that are in use. It's a source of confusion between both average people and the agency itself.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-urban-core-and-downtown-some-definitions/

IMO, and I'm pretty sure Ennis agrees, the issue we face isn't the definition of "downtown", the structure of DIA, or the funding. It's that neither DIA nor anyone else has a built in mechanism for improvements specifically to the traditional Downtown Core. Instead, they spread stuff all over the 4 mile area and call it downtown development.

[thelakelander]

Instead, they spread stuff all over the 4 mile area and call it downtown development.

Our local policies allow them to do this. It's fine if people are willing to accept that downtown will remain sleepy for decades, despite the slick renderings of places a mile away or across the river from it. Reading the FTU editorials, it seems at least those editors expect something that's not going to happen before 2025, given the policy and practices of that policy in place.

Aggressive change is restricting the ability to spread stuff all over the 4 mile area. You can do that by scaling back the area. I don't expect that to happen nor do I expect them to adopt a strategy to stop spreading stuff all over the 4 mile area. Thus, I'm simply saying downtown will remain sleepy until such change via strategy or restriction of the ability to spread things out occurs or another entity addresses these issues.

[jaxnyc79]

Instead, they spread stuff all over the 4 mile area and call it downtown development.

Our local policies allow them to do this. It's fine if people are willing to accept that downtown will remain sleepy for decades, despite the slick renderings of places a mile away or across the river from it. Reading the FTU editorials, it seems at least those editors expect something that's not going to happen before 2025, given the policy and practices of that policy in place.

Aggressive change is restricting the ability to spread stuff all over the 4 mile area. You can do that by scaling back the area. I don't expect that to happen nor do I expect them to adopt a strategy to stop spreading stuff all over the 4 mile area. Thus, I'm simply saying downtown will remain sleepy until such change via strategy or restriction of the ability to spread things out occurs or another entity addresses these issues.

Maybe a refresh is needed, but repurposing the St James into city hall, a new public library, the museum of modern art, a re-fashioning of hemming plaza, the Carling, 11E, the Adams Mark, have all been high-profile  northbank core initiatives failing to create the spark. Now Barnett and trio are coming online.  Maybe we haven't hit some threshold number of projects to create the vitality people want, but it's not that there's been no focus on Northbank core spark, theyve just failed to create or sustain momentum.  I'm just not convinced that Jax has enough of the kinds of residents for its core to keep up with what's happening in other cities - or if it does - those residents aren't being targeted effectively.  Again, notwithstanding that there is some demand for downtown, it's just not enough for Jax to keep up.  I'm not purporting to have all the answers by any stretch, it's just that if an investor decides to show an interest in the stadium district or in projects in LaVilla, I don't see how the city just ignores that.  The city didn't put any RFPs out for Lot J or even for the Vestcor projects (as far as I can tell), but that's where the limited set of investors and developers appear to be focused.  Again, Barnett and Laura Street are now happening and I remember reading on these threads how they were the transformative projects the Northbank core needed, and now that these once pipe dreams are actually materializing, we are now saying the Northbank won't be transformed any time soon.

[jaxnyc79]

In all honesty, the reason I return to these message threads is that I still believe there is a ton of untapped potential in Jax.  It is in the fastest growing state in the country, and out of the other major cities in the state, Jax arguably has the largest pre-WWII, pre-auto-centricity, grid-patterned street network and historic core of any of its state peers.  That's a huge opportunity for greatness in my opinion.  Yes, the opportunity is being wasted, and the message isn't out there enough.  Sadly, A lot of building stock has been razed, but the fact that the city has 20 or 30 square miles of relatively narrow grid patterned streets and urban blocks that offer inherent walkability here in the sunshine state, is huge in my opinion.

[jaxnyc79]

I wish there was a zoning overhaul  of the entire pre-WWII urban and suburban areas to require complete streets and dense, mixed-use walkable land uses.

[thelakelander]

Maybe a refresh is needed, but repurposing the St James into city hall, a new public library, the museum of modern art, a re-fashioning of hemming plaza, the Carling, 11E, the Adams Mark, have all been high-profile  northbank core initiatives failing to create the spark.

1. City Hall --- replaced a department store and storefront retail facing four blocks with a single access office only open M-F during office hours......that's not going to spark anything outside of a few hot dog vendors during weekday lunches.

2. Public Library --- great building that took out a block of retail and historic buildings, as opposed to taking out a surface parking lot. Includes two retail spaces that sit empty because of restrictions related to use, signage and operation hours outside of library's limited hours.

3. MOCA Jacksonville --- great!

4. Hemming Plaza --- Hemming needs activation of the "outer square" moreso than anything.

5. Carling + 11 East --- great projects but less than 300 units combined. The apartment complex I moved to off Southside Boulevard had more units and residents.

6. Adams Mark ---- Architecture aside, it's probably the most active spot in the Northbank outside of the Landing. Brings in out of town tourist because its conference space is better than the Prime Osborn's, includes a few restaurants and outside of the Omni, probably the only place one can find breakfast in downtown on a weekend.

We're screwed if we're counting on these to provide the spark that gets DT over the hump. What we need is these and about 20 or 30 more complementing projects within walking distance of them.

Now Barnett and trio are coming online.  Maybe we haven't hit some threshold number of projects to create the vitality people want, but it's not that there's been no focus on Northbank core spark, theyve just failed to create or sustain momentum.

We have not hit a threshold and it's unrealistic to think 300 multifamily units are going to sustain any type of momentum. Using that minimum 10,000 number local leaders like to toss around, we'd need something like an additional 5,000 more units within a few blocks of them. To channel growth into an area to sustain momentum and create synergy is where additional focus is required. Looking forward, there are some projects that will help. The Barnett, Trio, Hotel Indigo, VyStar, Hyatt Place, etc. are all positive because they all activate dead and underutilized spaces near currently high density occupied sites. IMO, they'll bring more life to the real downtown than the District and Shipyards ever will. Luckily, they all appear to moving forward now, which increases their likelihood of happening before the economy falls apart. Will they be enough? I doubt it. Here's where properly addressing additional issues like the Landing's future, the convention center, JEA headquarters, other large vacant sites like the old JEA tower, Furchgott's, etc., two-waying streets, modifying zoning, etc. can help sustain momentum.

I'm just not convinced that Jax has enough of the kinds of residents for its core to keep up with what's happening in other cities - or if it does - those residents aren't being targeted effectively. Again, notwithstanding that there is some demand for downtown, it's just not enough for Jax to keep up.

Jax has more residents in downtown than Savannah has in its popular historic district. With focus, complementing uses such as student housing, hotels, strategically located cultural facilities, etc. can help activate the streetscape. I'll say it again, demand isn't an issue for downtown Jax. Focus and economic access for a larger pool of players to participate in its rebirth are.

I'm not purporting to have all the answers by any stretch, it's just that if an investor decides to show an interest in the stadium district or in projects in LaVilla, I don't see how the city just ignores that.

There's no need to ignore development opportunities and I'm certainly not saying we should. We're not ignoring investors restoring properties and building infill housing in Springfield. We're not ignoring investors snapping up properties in the Eastside or building strip malls in the Southside.

The city didn't put any RFPs out for Lot J or even for the Vestcor projects (as far as I can tell), but that's where the limited set of investors and developers appear to be focused.

Investors are all over town. Even in downtown. Several of the projects mentioned in this thread are examples. We have our challenges but not attracting investors isn't one of them.

Again, Barnett and Laura Street are now happening and I remember reading on these threads how they were the transformative projects the Northbank core needed, and now that these once pipe dreams are actually materializing, we are now saying the Northbank won't be transformed any time soon.

Part of this problem is locally it sounds like we have no real idea of how much it takes to make a place vibrant at the pedestrian level. Every single major project proposed, we've got someone going around claiming its a game changer. In reality, none of them are. Clustering as many of them together within a walkable setting is. So the Barnett and Laura Street Trio are nice but that adds up to a small limited service hotel and about 200 apartments. Figure out how to get about 20 to 30 similar sized projects between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt, and then we can start talking game changing.

[thelakelander]

In all honesty, the reason I return to these message threads is that I still believe there is a ton of untapped potential in Jax.  It is in the fastest growing state in the country, and out of the other major cities in the state, Jax arguably has the largest pre-WWII, pre-auto-centricity, grid-patterned street network and historic core of any of its state peers.  That's a huge opportunity for greatness in my opinion.  Yes, the opportunity is being wasted, and the message isn't out there enough.  Sadly, A lot of building stock has been razed, but the fact that the city has 20 or 30 square miles of relatively narrow grid patterned streets and urban blocks that offer inherent walkability here in the sunshine state, is huge in my opinion.

Miami/South Florida, Tampa Bay and then Jacksonville when it comes to scale of pre-WWII grid-patterned street networks, historic core size, etc. in the state. However, the architecture, period of development, natural landscape, infrastructure, bridges, etc. make it unique. It's a mix of the Midwest and the Sunbelt rolled up in one. I can only imagine what places like Charlotte and Atlanta would resemble if they have Jax's bones to work with. Despite how negative I may sound in this thread, I agree that Jax has a huge opportunity for greatness and it will still exist after the current mayoral administration leaves office.

[jaxnyc79]

So what are you proposing?  DIA drop everything else and focus on 20-30 mixed-use projects in the DVI northbank core?

Also, I thought downtown Savannah has 20,000+ residents and its historic district is a very different animal and a comparison to Jax's downtown residential base is a stretch, not to mention Savannah is an internationally renowned travel destination keeping it fueled with the agents of vibrancy. 

But I do understand your broader point about complementing uses and clustering.  I still contend that Jax is too focused on the supply side and not enough on the demand side.  A savvy, sophisticated, multi-pronged marketing campaign to present the mojo and positive adventure of urban dwelling to a segment of the region's population where it makes sense (the young, the singles, the students, the empty nesters, the childless) should be happening in parallel with construction and physical rehabilitation planning.  And I don't mean anything '"on the nose," and def not led by FTU editors.