Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018

[Kerry]

I have to say I find comparing the posts of "The Jags were the second coming" to "the Jags are the anti-christ" pretty funny. It reminds me of watching a cable news segment.

I would be willing to play my part on a TV show if anyone is interested.  Does Public Access TV still exist?

[Kerry]

My point was that Jax was considered a smelly (paper mills) backwater town you had to pass through to get to south Florida. There was very little development going on anywhere in Jax. Believe it or not the Jags put Jax the map. Today I wouldn't move here because of Jags but at least I know it exists and should check it out.

It couldn't have been that bad - they convinced the NFL to expand here.  Of course, being a sport fans, especially college football, I always knew about the Gator Bowl and Jax.

[Steve]

My point was that Jax was considered a smelly (paper mills) backwater town you had to pass through to get to south Florida. There was very little development going on anywhere in Jax. Believe it or not the Jags put Jax the map. Today I wouldn't move here because of Jags but at least I know it exists and should check it out.

It couldn't have been that bad - they convinced the NFL to expand here.  Of course, being a sport fans, especially college football, I always knew about the Gator Bowl and Jax.

Jacksonville got a little lucky, but yes in the end the argument was successful:

-Commissioner Tagliabue championed new markets that were popular for college football:
-The leaders of the St Louis and Baltimore bids (which were considered the leaders) had some issues. St Louis had multiple ownership groups that had some infighting going on, and the league was afraid of pissing off the Redskins' ownership by being too close (yes-I agree that makes no sense considering Baltimore had a team until 1982ish). The other contender was Memphis but their plans for the Liberty Bowl were less than impressive.

[Adam White]

It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we're talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ's contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.

You may wish to revisit your math.

The math is correct. COJ gave the Jaguars $45M. The Jaguars then managed the project and were responsible for any cost overruns.

No, the math is wrong. If the Jaguars gave $90M and the COJ gave $45M, that's not 50/50. That's 67/33 (roughly).

[Adam White]

While I'd certainly wouldn't mind having the economic growth of Austin, I definitely don't want to be in Richmond's or Norfolk's shoes in terms of growth.

I definitely think the Jaguars deserve a portion of the credit for the economic growth.

Maybe their lack of economic growth is because they're in VA. Or maybe it's because they start with letters that come later in the alphabet. Both 'hypothoses' are just as reasonable as randomly assuming that the presence of a professional football team is the reason for purported better growth on the part of Jax.

"The" reason for growth? Definitely not, nor did I ever (or would ever) say that. A catalyst that plays a role? I think it would be hard to argue otherwise.

Or it could be a complete coincidence. There could be innumerable other factors which are far more important to the growth of Jax than having an NFL team. Simply noting that Jax has a team and has been growing at a faster rate than two other somewhat similarly-sized MSAs that don't have teams is just that. It's simply a correlation - and you know what they say about that.

[Tacachale]

It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we're talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ's contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.

You may wish to revisit your math.

The math is correct. COJ gave the Jaguars $45M. The Jaguars then managed the project and were responsible for any cost overruns.

No, the math is wrong. If the Jaguars gave $90M and the COJ gave $45M, that's not 50/50. That's 67/33 (roughly).

[Adam White]

It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we're talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ's contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.

You may wish to revisit your math.

The math is correct. COJ gave the Jaguars $45M. The Jaguars then managed the project and were responsible for any cost overruns.

No, the math is wrong. If the Jaguars gave $90M and the COJ gave $45M, that's not 50/50. That's 67/33 (roughly).

Very good.

I was actually strengthening his argument re: the contributions that Khan/the Jaguars made. But I'm also a pedantic prick and couldn't help myself...

[Steve]

Maybe I'm not explaining properly. The Jaguars contributed $45M of their own Money. The COJ contributed $45M of Government Money. The total project was $90M.

I wrote it the way I did (perhaps confusing) because technically the COJ didn't pay the contractor, they paid the Jaguars, who managed the project in exchange for being responsible for overruns.

[Adam White]

Maybe I'm not explaining properly. The Jaguars contributed $45M of their own Money. The COJ contributed $45M of Government Money. The total project was $90M.

I wrote it the way I did (perhaps confusing) because technically the COJ didn't pay the contractor, they paid the Jaguars, who managed the project in exchange for being responsible for overruns.

OIC.

[Kerry]

I think this explains the money spent pretty well.

The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.

How much money do you think COJ makes from a concert at say, the Arena? It isn't much once you take out SMG's fees. I can't fathom how spending an extra $45M would have resulted in a better deal for the city.

While I don't feel this way, I suppose you could have made that argument for the Club Renovations and other stadium work. I can't see how the same argument could be made for Daily's Place.

Further, remember that the Cub Renovations and stadium improvements also benefit things like the Florida Georgia game and events like the FSU kickoff game in 2019. Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

There are a lot of shades of gray here.

Daily's Place is a huge net positive for the area and fills a gap that we've been trying to fill since the 1990's.

And though I wouldn't characterize it as a terrible deal for the city, I can at least understand Kerry's point of view.

Total breakdown for the $90 million project, which the city split equally with Khan, was:

$20 million - Jaguars Practice Field
$25 million - Assure Club Renovations
$45 million - Daily's Place

The widely accepted narrative is that Khan went in half with the city on a $45 million ampitheater.

The flip-side of the narrative, which people don't talk about as much, is that this must also mean that the city paid half for a $20 million practice field for a $2.1 billion private business, and half for $25 million club seat upgrades which the Jags obviously benefit from much more than the city does.

I think a more accurate way to look at the project is:

- The Jags funded a $20 million practice facility.
- The Jags and city split the $25 million club seat upgrades 50/50
- The city spent $32.5 million on Daily's Place, with the Jags kicking in $12.5 million

As the city owns all three properties, we are responsible for maintenance, upkeep, and utilities for all three venues, including the Jaguars' practice facility.

Somehow though, the Jaguars get to keep 100% of naming rights revenue from the club section (USS Assure), the practice field (Dream Finders) and the amphitheater (Daily's), in addition to using a city-owned, city-funded practice field rent-free, and getting a cut of all of the profits at Daily's Place through Bold Events.

Whatever, it came from bed taxes, not the general fund, which have to be used for this type of project anyway.

I ain't mad, the arrangement seems fine with all parties.

We got a much needed asset in Daily's Place, and built some goodwill with Khan and the Jags, which is the price to pay to be in the NFL game in 2018.

But I do think it's a mischaracterization to label Daily's Place as some kind of altruistic 50/50 gift from the Jags to the city without in turn mentioning the practice field and club upgrades as 50/50 gifts from the city to a private corporation.

[Steve]

I mean okay-under that logic, you could say the COJ paid entirely for Daily's Place and the Jaguars paid for the club renovations and the Practice Field

[Steve]

Also, while you can argue that the City and Jaguars should split the Daily's Place naming rights (heck, make the argument that the city should keep it), but TIAA, US Assure, and Dream Finders wouldn't pay any more than 10% of what they paid if not for the team.

TIAA Bank gets on TV nationally 9 times a year because of the Jaguars. No Jaguars, no home games, TIAA doesn't sponsor. Dream Finders is the same way. Without an NFL team, there is no practice field, and no practices to be covered by the media from the Dream Finders Home Practice Facility.

Put another way: people aren't lining up to by naming rights for the Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville.

[Kerry]

That is because Jax has a pretty weak corporate base.  Lots of cities have arenas with corporate sponsorship and no pro team.  Before the Thunder moved to Oklahoma City the arena there was sponsored by Ford.  There was no primary tenant of any kind.  10% of something is better than 0% of anything.

[Kerry]

Even Wichita has an arena sponsor.

[BridgeTroll]

Are there any other businesses in Jax that have the payroll the Jags pay their staff, coaches, and players?  Probably 60+ 7 figure+ salaries...  another 30 or so 6 figure and a multitude of very good paying jobs... all living and spending in Duval... at least part time.

https://overthecap.com/contracts/jacksonville-jaguars/