WHAT DO YOU THINK? The 10 worst transportation decisions in Jacksonville...

[cline]

While I think not extending the Hart was shortsighted, I feel that the Hart's elevated spans adjacent to the stadium was an even worse decision.  That, coupled with the elevated span of the Arlington Expressway west of the Mathews, effectively killed off the Fairfield neighborhood.

[north miami]

Why is Blanding a mistake, just because it's heavily congested? I cannot think of any solutions for that. People seem to think was good for the burbs always equals bad for DT; Blanding Blvd was gonna happen anyway, no matter what with the growth of Orange Park.

Dead End wrong. It was not a matter of "if" growth,but rather one of how.I was centrally involved in key Clay 21 planning decisions in the early 80's.Giant mistakes were made-knowingly.

A Grand Jury report charged Clay County planning efforts were "Inept".

[north miami]

Here is a dandy:

1999

Permit application No. 199902775(IP-BL) & 1990288 (Ip-Bl)

Applicant:
Florida Department of Transportation
1636 Lake Jeffrey Road
Lake City,Fl 32205

Brannon/Chaffee  Clay,Duval County

The description of the project as "stand alone" was without merit aand misleading (was but a small leg of the acknowledged Beltway)

Assumptions and discussions of traffic congestion relief were erroneous

The applicant failed to adequately describe the total scope of development and secondary impacts

Mayor John Delaney lodged strong letter of support..........

[Jaxson]

I wish Jax would name more of its freeways.

I agree with you.  Jacksonville was lax when it came to naming its major freeways.  We seem to be content with having the state legislature designate various roads in a piecemeal, helter skelter way.  I am not impressed with one roadway being named for five or six various people along its route.  I think that such designations actually diminish the honor.  IMHO, we would be better off naming an entire stretch of highway in someone's honor instead of putting up those little brown signs.  And, if we are so addicted to the legislature-designated honors on those brown signs, the least we could do is have a campaign to educate locals about who half of these people are/were.

[I-10east]

It's seems like everyone hates Blanding's current state, but one has any solutions. I'll tell you what, don't build it, then 295 would be 10 times more congested. That would make alot of you happy. It's ridicious to think that every square inch of Jax gotta be an urban setting. Blanding is no different than MANY streets in America connecting the big city, and suburb. It's so damn easy to say "I told you so"; Then they do what you want, then something else goes wrong, and then another one says "I told you so". Nothing is perfect.  

[thelakelander]

Blanding itself isn't the reason for the gridlock on it.  The auto oriented sprawling land uses along it are the cause.  Also, you don't have to be "urban" to be sustainable.  With better land use regulations even a typical McDonald's drive thru can be transformed into something respectable that cuts down on automobile use.

[I-10east]

IMO Blanding with it's current course, no matter what kinda setting (maybe besides rural) will be heavy congested, unless new roads are built parallel to Blanding (like US 17) to help relieve congestion. I guess people are okay with roads like Beach and Atlantic (with similar "sprawl" style setups like Blanding).

[thelakelander]

It's too late for Blanding.  More lanes and new roads will only make the problems worse if a building moratorium isn't a part of the plan.  The best solution for congestion relief would be something like commuter rail.  This would serve as a congestion alternative for residents willing to embrace alternative modes of transportation while encouraging sustainable development around its stops.  

[Jaxson]

It's seems like everyone hates Blanding's current state, but one has any solutions. I'll tell you what, don't build it, then 295 would be 10 times more congested. That would make alot of you happy. It's ridicious to think that every square inch of Jax gotta be an urban setting. Blanding is no different than MANY streets in America connecting the big city, and suburb. It's so damn easy to say "I told you so"; Then they do what you want, then something else goes wrong, and then another one says "I told you so". Nothing is perfect.   

I think that it is overly simplistic to shrug off all criticism of sprawl as utopian or unrealistic.  I think that the whole point of this thread is to point out past errors so that we can do better when planning future roads and transportation. 
As for thinking that every square inch of Jacksonville should be an 'urban' setting, I think that there is a place for urban, suburban and rural.  I, however, do not believe that 'suburban' has to be synonymous with 'gridlock.'  That is also a major theme on this thread. 
Where was I when they were originally planning Blanding Boulevard?  I was in elementary school.  Am I speaking out for smarter transportation options today?  Yes.
My motive is not out of some starry-eyed fantasy, but out of a sincere desire to improve the quality of life in the community - something that should appeal to most of us.

By the way, I don't think that we hae given up on Atlantic and Beach.  I personally take Wonderwood and can avoid Atlantic.  And, when I don't feel like takng Beach, I go dow JTB.  The lack of similar relief for Blanding is what irks me.

[aj_fresh]

Connecting JTB to Hart Expressway would be on my wishlist. 

[spuwho]

The fact is the height was lowered to save dollars to keep the bridge financially feasible as it was to be paid by tolls.  If it were to cost too much, the bridge wouldn't have been built at that time.  Real estate speculators betting on the north shore were the reason behind the building of this bridge and nothing would stop them from seeing it built on the schedule they were banking on.  The port, bridge safety, etc. be damned.  That' s typical of how too many decisions get made in Jax.  Study almost any bad decision on these lists, and you will find that behind many of them.

By the way, this bridge was a JTA project.  Surprise, surprise.[/b]

All bridges have compromises in scope, so while I may have "guessed wrong" in your eyes, the fact that it was finished at all I think is a positive thing in the eyes of the public. Costs, routing, heights, public good are all things that are weighed and measured when considering a large public works project such as the Dames Point Bridge. As I noted before, when all of those things were considered and debated, somewhere, somehow compromises must be made. Now the compromises may not meet your satisfaction in how they were achieved, but unfortunately a much wider audience had to be considered.

There is a recurring theme amongst these threads that seem to always blame some developer, investor or special interest in a development of some kind. All municipalities have their issues with "under the table" deals and it appears that Jacksonville is not immune.

However, if I was a city father and a developer (commercial, residential, doesn't matter) came to me with an idea to spend several million of his/her own money to create something that would enhance the community, add to the general tax base and still offer a decent profit to the creator, wouldn't it be prudent to sit down and listen? The one thing that is desirable is that the discussions take place in the open, however, if the developer doesn't want a competitor to know what they are working on with the city, wouldn't the city want to cooperate (up to a point) to make sure the deal works before submitting it for public review?

My perception is that the city fathers fall down in when they choose to reveal these schemes the developers cook up. This spreads a perception of mistrust and misdeed in execution. Keeping things in the "open" is always desirable, but there will always be the case of the Fuller Warren profiteering mentioned earlier, which is inexcusable.

Now if your issue is that the city fathers aren't listening to the right kinds of development offers, then that is a an issue that can be rectified come the next election. My perception is that Jacksonville doesn't stick with their plans, like a jilting bride, she is ready to jump into someone else's arms when the dollars signs are flashed in their face. When a government has a reputation of being exceptionally pliable, then every huckster is going to try and throw the dice and see what they can scrape off. But it goes both ways, COJ has screwed developers by not keeping their commitments, the Landing comes to mind.

Collective will towards a plan and then sticking with it over the duration is the problem with Jax. Blaming the developers for pursuing weak leaders is easy, but doesn't deal with the problem. Holding your elected leaders accountable will have more long term benefits.

The Skyway was built because some leader in Congress was able to get Jax on an appropriations for a demonstration project. Someone threw some dollars at the city and they jumped.

Someone wants to get some Obamacash to build a heavy rail transit in Jax. So here we are again. Do we just take the cash and do what it requires, or do we make it part of an overall, long term plan so that the public can see the benefits?

It's easy to cry conspiracy, when holding one accountable is much more effective but harder to do.

[Ocklawaha]

"Next station stop, ORANGE PARK!"

As a somewhat newcomer to the greater Jacksonville area, I read this with some chuckles.

I don't dispute there were some oversights, but some of these just couldn't be for-seen.

- Anything railroad based. Guys, I love rails as much as anyone, but rail was dying everywhere. Short lines could no longer be run profitably and passenger rail was losing money big time. There was no politics in NE Florida supporting tax based subsidies back then. Today yes, then no. Highways were it and that is where the money was going, period. If someone back when FEC ran the line to the Beaches said, "hey, you are going to need this in 50 years, so buy it now" when everything east of East Street and Hogan Road was basically a forest and one flashing stop light, they probably thought he was nuts. Short sighted, perhaps, but the right call at the time.

"Bad form, off target, no points scored!"

RAIL was NEVER dying anywhere, it was going through a reality check, eliminating duplicate mileage, cutting non productive branchlines, yards and junctions, reforming, rebuilding  and dumping money losing passenger trains. Like the change from buckboard wagons to 18 wheelers it could be perceived by a novice as "going away" but it's no more vanishing then a caterpillar in a cocoon.

St. Elmo Acosta DID SAY, "The beach branchline of the Florida East Coast is being abandoned and thus offers us supreme opportunity for a fast modern electric trolley service..."  His petition was shelved until a later meeting and so far I have not seen record that it ever surfaced again. This was around the time the streetcar system was sold-out to General Motors, Firestone, Greyhound, Phillips and Standard Oil. Within days of the proposal Acosta was ARRESTED for giving potato's to a poor woman. The potato's in question were city property!

Relying solely on autos is a detriment around here, of that I agree, but it is nowhere near as bad as people think.  Actually, as someone coming from the outside, JTA has done well at getting the roads built. Now I can't say they are planned all that well all the time, but compared to most cities, "getting around" in Jacksonville is not as bad as one seems. There are many places that have routes much worse than the Blanding corridor, and when I have driven the route, it seems a minor issue overall.

Actually Duval, Clay and St. Johns have traffic locations that rank among the worst 10-20 in the USA! Of those Orange Park residents rank as NUMBER ONE in Florida, and Blanding is NUMBER ONE in Orange Park! Trouble is it is not 100% a local planning problem, it IS a problem sent from GOD.  Notice that the Ortega River pinches ANY roadway that attempts to squeeze between 17 (Roosevelt) and 21 (Blanding) until the whole of the available land is found on the North end of Ortega. The Cedar River forms another brick in the wall causing the only clear access to Jacksonville from the South being WEST OF LANE or Old Middleburg. Anything short of FLYING highways or trains will have to contend with the waterways.

Dames Point Bridge. My guess is that when it was built with a 150' clearance over a 42' channel, they had no indication that cruise ships of the future were going to need 165' clearance and 50' drafts to make port, let alone the Panamax ships. While I would love it if cruise ships could call near the downtown, there is no way anyone could have predicted this in 1986.

AIRLINE FREEDOMS are the result of international treaty and are granted on a per-named-freedom basis, this a list of the "freedoms" which you may never have heard about:
Freedom......Description.................................................................Example

1st    the right to fly over a foreign country, without landing there    Toronto - Mexico City, overflying the United States

2nd    the right to refuel or carry out maintenance in a foreign country on the way to another country    Toronto - Mexico City with a short-range aircraft that needs to be refuelled in the U.S.

3rd    the right to fly from one's own country to another    carrying passengers from Toronto to Chicago as a Canadian company

4th    the right to fly from another country to one's own    carrying passengers from Chicago to Toronto as a Canadian company

5th    the right to fly between two foreign countries during flights while the flight originates or ends in one's own country    a Canadian company flies from Toronto to Chicago, picks up passengers there, then continues to Mexico City

6th    the right to fly from a foreign country to another one while stopping in one's own country for non-technical reasons    a U.S. company flying passengers from Toronto to Mexico via Chicago

7th    the right to fly between two foreign countries while not offering flights to one's own country    a European airline that offers flights between Canada and the U.S. without offering any to Europe

8th    the right to fly between two or more airports in a foreign country while continuing service to one's own country    Cathay Pacific flights from Hong Kong to Penang via Kuala Lumpur

9th    the right to do traffic within a foreign country without continuing service to one's own country    all European airlines may use this right within the EU countries

As STJR has pointed out so well, this was WELL KNOWN and fought right down to the finish line by our PORT and a myrid of steamship lines. Even THEN we had hundreds of ships that could not clear that bridge, not to mention the long shots like the Navy returning to Green Cove Springs to really foul up the works. The bridge was delayed for years while dozens of lawsuits were fought out. The bridge bent (support) in the channel is an accident waiting to happen. FDOT, JTA, USN, JAXPORT, COJ, all dropped the ball and did this in such a way as to guarantee our port would always be an "also ran" among the giants of the industry.

The BA Flight problem at JIA. There was a period in the US where there were strict rules on how non-US airlines could originate/land. Also, you mentioned they wanted to do a domestic "jump". Many countries do not allow non-domestic airlines to perform a what could be considered a local flight without some sort of concession from the host airport performing the jump, in this case JIA. Lufthansa had to get special permission to originate a flight from Cape Town to Munich with a jump stop in Johannesburg.  I can't see JIA allowing someone to tie up a gate, require an extended runway, where most people don't deplane (and spend $ in the terminal) and if it was a 747 or A380, probably wouldn't even need to refuel to get to Tampa (so no sales tax on fuel). What was in it for JIA? An expensive runway addition, a jumbo capable gate for flights that provide very little by way of revenue. Sounds like a no brainer to me.

JIA, JAXPORT and the COJ knew from the get-go that true international flights have a tremendous economic benefit. Like a major railroad passenger terminal a city of such services can expect rapid growth of connecting and ancillary services, growth begats growth. Besides that the new airline "freedoms" break all of the old rules and companies such as BA or Virgin Atlantic will attract all manner of local or regional support within their frameworks.  Some aspects of the "freedoms" are much older then even the jet age, bottom line? It was more like typical ignorance of the benefits of transportation that have kept JIA in the stone age. Who would have predicted that in the distant future Jacksonville would have fewer international flights then Melbourne or Sanford Florida? How about in 1920? 1950? 1970? 

Ending Hart Expwy at Beach, strategic error by far, put politics played a heavy part in blocking it to JTB. They can still overcome it by linking it to Southside someday.

This line is true, I would hope when that day comes to bite the bitter bullet, we not only FINISH the "Hart" Commodore Point Expressway to JTB, that we also bring down the viaducts across East Jacksonville.


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Accountability has allways been an issue here, we are not alone in that aspect, but an overall vision appears to be lacking! More concrete is JTA's mantra, without taking into account the many aspects of any mass transit system. Intermodal is just what the name implies.......more than one link to another link to another link....bus and rail are just two slices of the pie but not the only ones! JTA does not need to have overall control over everything any more the FDOT! Both are governed by concrete philosophys and neither can see past their own noses.......I could point out shelters and the lack there of,  Transportation Centers that are needed like another leg, lack of planning  and on and on and on! Maybe it is past time to revamp, cut the waste and the jobs and get lean and mean with some kind of vision machine!

[Charles Hunter]

When compiling the list of the Grand Conspirators who conspired to choke off the port for the benefit of a road -  you must add the United States Coast Guard - they approved the height of the Dames Point Bridge.  As I recall, because of the USCG, it is taller than originally proposed.  Also, the USCG insisted the south pier be farther ashore on that island (Bartram? Quarantine?) than originally planned - a ship can still hit it, but would be pushing through bottom silt to get there.  (All of this - If I Remember Correctly   )

Ock, what does the Navy coming back to Green Cove Springs have to do with the height of the Dames Point?  If it were 300 feet tall, the Mathews and Commodore Point (Hart) are still around 140 - 150, shorter than the DP.

[Coolyfett]

1. Airport Location....there is nothing in between airport & downtown...It would be better on the southside.

2. Unfinished Skyway system. 8 stations aint big city. It goes no where.

3. The missing 8th Bridge that connects Jtb & 103RD...man this brigde would clear up a lot of current traffic & future traffic.

4. Jta bus station...there should be 3 of these. 1 on each of the 3 sides of town....1 bus station for a city the size of Jax is terrible. One between downtown & airport will be a good spot.