Mayor Curry wants the Landing back

[FlaBoy]

After Sleiman bought it, he has proposed renovations, but they've mostly involved razing and replacing the structure with boring buildings, and they've required massive public subsidies, so they're not any closer to happening.

The original plans Sleiman presented did not demo the existing building but instead added several new buildings and uses. I am referring to the "It's About Time' plans. The city did not go along, so everything since then has been demolish and start over.

I personally would he eliminate  the interior mall, open up the courtyard to Laura Street and build a hotel or mixed use building to support the Landing either were the Hogan St. cul de sac is or where the Main St. bridge on ramp is., or perhaps both.

Yes, that was a pretty interesting plan. It never happened, though.

Those suggestions are all good. Also Ennis' idea about converting the main entrance area to a food hall is interesting too. There's a lot that could be done with the Landing if it were just to receive basic renovations.

Anyone have those plans?

[thelakelander]

I spent some time in the Landing this weekend.



Take out Village Bread and bring the original Market Hall concept back.  Instead of push carts, line the sides with vendors and fill the space with communal seating.



I guess you could also repurpose the actual food court into such a use, without much modification.  The only problem I see here is the waste of potential revenue generating space.  It seems more income could be made if the second floor was subdivided into a couple of restaurants overlooking the courtyard and river.  The space on the first floor works better as a food court or hall from a profitability standpoint, IMO.

[Tacachale]

Maybe, but experience says probably not. Sleiman's "running it like a shopping center" spiel was as much of a threat to COJ as a real idea. He's not going to make upgrades of the kind discussed in this thread that would have a real impact on the facility and support uses that can and do work there. The resources required to rebuild spaces into bigger street-facing boxes, renovating the food court, opening up to Laura Street (or turning it into a food hall), etc. are not massive, but they're beyond everything he's ever committed to the structure in 14 years. Seems more likely we'd see the same nickel and dime stewardship, probably accompanied by claims that the market can only support nickel and dime renters unless he receives massive incentives to tear it down.

The bold part basically means the site is screwed. COJ's track record is worse than Sleiman's. The courthouse site is still sitting vacant, Sax Seafood is a homeless camp, the Shipyards still lie empty +15 years after the Trilegacy debacle and we're still waiting for CW Brown's BBQ plant to start producing jobs and product.  Instead of lighting more public money on fire, calling him on his bluff is about the most fiscally responsible thing COJ can do at this point.  As for Sleiman, the rest of his portfolio looks decent.  IMO, what keeps this particular property from recieving the upgrades it needs is the continued push for full redevelopment.

The city's inconsistent, but many entertainment facilities run by the city and its contractors - the stadium, arena, Baseball Grounds, and apparently the new amphitheater, are all better run than the Landing. They aren't open everyday, but the Landing barely feels like it is either. The Landing being screwed is a matter of perspective. I'd argue it's not screwed now; it's apparently turning a profit for Sleiman despite him running it like he does, and the waterfront restaurants appear to be doing ok. There's no reason to think that won't continue, either under Sleiman, or another.

[remc86007]

McDonalds (with BK not far behind)
Subway
Mattress Firm
Aspen Dental
A Chinese Food take out (or Panda Express)
CVS Drug Store (Walgreens won't go there)
Angel Kids Pediatrics
Newks
Local Computer Store/Cellphone Repair
A card/gift shop that sells Hallmark
AT&T Store
COJ-DMV Express
Game Stop
Little Ceasars
Party Zone
A Dollar Store
Taco Bell
Chik-Fil-A
Tropical Smoothie Cafe
A BAC or Chase branch
Post Office branch with Passport services
Comcast/Xfinity

What a nice, succinct list of loathsome establishments!

But since you mention it, it would be nice to have a full service post office downtown. Also, is there anywhere to buy a smoothie downtown?

[thelakelander]

I'd argue it doesn't turn a profit currently, based on the information I've received.  Plus a shopping center and something like an amphitheater or stadium are completely different animals. Nevertheless, take the 15-year old conversation of full redevelopment off the table, and I believe we'll discover easy-to-implement possibilities we haven't considered, even under Sleiman's management.

[thelakelander]

McDonalds (with BK not far behind)
Subway
Mattress Firm
Aspen Dental
A Chinese Food take out (or Panda Express)
CVS Drug Store (Walgreens won't go there)
Angel Kids Pediatrics
Newks
Local Computer Store/Cellphone Repair
A card/gift shop that sells Hallmark
AT&T Store
COJ-DMV Express
Game Stop
Little Ceasars
Party Zone
A Dollar Store
Taco Bell
Chik-Fil-A
Tropical Smoothie Cafe
A BAC or Chase branch
Post Office branch with Passport services
Comcast/Xfinity

What a nice, succinct list of loathsome establishments!

But since you mention it, it would be nice to have a full service post office downtown. Also, is there anywhere to buy a smoothie downtown?

Not to say there's a market for any of these names specifically but here's some other tenants in those same strip malls that many millennials wouldn't mind having...

Longhorn Steakhouse
Target
Panera
Epic Theatres
Five Guys Burgers and Fries
Steak 'N' Shake
Walgreens
Bono's Bar-B-Que
CVS
Monroe's Smokehouse
Earth Fare
PDQ
Jollibee
Potter's House Soul Food Bistro
Native Sun
Jos A Bank
Books-A-Million
Chick-fil-A
Barnes & Noble
Trader Joe's

[remc86007]

^Target, Native Sun, Earth Fare, or Trader Joe's opening downtown would be game changing. Too bad the chances of that in the next 5yrs at least seem extremely slim.

[spuwho]

While those are all reputable brands and establishments, you guys are seeking what you think looks best, not what would really work.

The Landing doesn't get the drive by traffic like a strip mall on San Jose, Timuquana or Atlantic Blvd would get, so you have to go to the brands that work in low volume settings.  People can't drive over the Main Street Bridge, see the McDonalds sign and say, "hey, lets stop".

You have to go with what will drive foot traffic from either 2 sources, urban workforce or the core residential for your base, and the visit the riverfront walkables as your gravy.

While it is not unexpected to think of the better options, based on the Landing's history thus far, you are going to have to reach to the bottom before you can rise to the top.

[Adam White]

Just fill it with bars, vaping shops and tattoo studios and be done with it.

[thelakelander]

While those are all reputable brands and establishments, you guys are seeking what you think looks best, not what would really work.

I think you may have missed my basic point.  I'm not suggesting seeking tenants that I think look best.  I'm suggesting not spending tax money on fully redeveloping the site, calling Sleiman's bluff and allowing him to sign long term leases, based on what the market will support.

By now, it should be pretty clear where retailing trends are going:

http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jun-top-5-retail-shopping-center-trends

Based on local, national trends, and the Landing's very own history, you should expect less specialty retail and more dining and entertainment.  So whether that dining ends up being Cheesecake Factory verses Hooters, McDonald's or 7-Eleven is for the market and private sector to decide.

The Landing doesn't get the drive by traffic like a strip mall on San Jose, Timuquana or Atlantic Blvd would get, so you have to go to the brands that work in low volume settings.  People can't drive over the Main Street Bridge, see the McDonalds sign and say, "hey, lets stop".

I think this is a bit of an assumption.  The Landing is no different from any other retail space in the downtown area, except it has the benefit of clustered pedestrian scale retail/dining space, making it the number destination in downtown, even in its poor state. For example,  Landing Hooters still outperforms all of their suburban locations in this region.  Whatever makes that happen is a market dynamic that should and can be exploited without spending millions to remove Main Street Bridge ramps and demolishing/rebuilding buildings.

You have to go with what will drive foot traffic from either 2 sources, urban workforce or the core residential for your base, and the visit the riverfront walkables as your gravy.

Yes. However, I suspect the Landing is driven by the urban workforce and whatever tourism base is here.  It will be years before the Northbank has a core residential base to support 125,000 square feet of retail and dining.  If anything, it needs more Omnis, Hyatts and Laura Trio Courtyard by Marriotts.  It also needs a Skyway that operates on weekends, so guests staying at the Southbank hotels have better access to spend their disposable income at its businesses. Looking forward, the best thing Jax can do for the Landing is continue to grow the residential base and invest in the convention industry in hopes of attracting more visitors downtown.

While it is not unexpected to think of the better options, based on the Landing's history thus far, you are going to have to reach to the bottom before you can rise to the top.

The bottom is most likely restaurant chains....like Hooters, food court/hall style eateries, and limited retail that can be supported by the people downtown, think CVS, 7-Eleven, etc. as opposed to Brooks Brothers and Gap.

[thelakelander]

Just fill it with bars, vaping shops and tattoo studios and be done with it.

If that's what the market will support, so be it.  However, I doubt tattoo studios and vaping shops can fill that much space or generate enough business to pay the rent.

[FlaBoy]

Yes. However, I suspect the Landing is driven by the urban workforce and whatever tourism base is here.  It will be years before the Northbank has a core residential base to support 125,000 square feet of retail and dining.  If anything, it needs more Omnis, Hyatts and Laura Trio Courtyard by Marriotts.  It also needs a Skyway that operates on weekends, so guests staying at the Southbank hotels have better access to spend their disposable income at its businesses. Looking forward, the best thing Jax can do for the Landing is continue to grow the residential base and invest in the convention industry in hopes of attracting more visitors downtown.

What I pull from all of this is any money spent would be better used on a convention center than on demolishing the Landing. The two were meant to go hand-in-hand.

[lastdaysoffla]

Get a Fuddruckers in there and everything will work out.

[Adam White]

Just fill it with bars, vaping shops and tattoo studios and be done with it.

If that's what the market will support, so be it.  However, I doubt tattoo studios and vaping shops can fill that much space or generate enough business to pay the rent.

I wasn't serious. It was satire.

[thelakelander]

Yes. However, I suspect the Landing is driven by the urban workforce and whatever tourism base is here.  It will be years before the Northbank has a core residential base to support 125,000 square feet of retail and dining.  If anything, it needs more Omnis, Hyatts and Laura Trio Courtyard by Marriotts.  It also needs a Skyway that operates on weekends, so guests staying at the Southbank hotels have better access to spend their disposable income at its businesses. Looking forward, the best thing Jax can do for the Landing is continue to grow the residential base and invest in the convention industry in hopes of attracting more visitors downtown.

What I pull from all of this is any money spent would be better used on a convention center than on demolishing the Landing. The two were meant to go hand-in-hand.

Basically.  The Landing's condition is a symptom of a larger downtown ailment.  Tearing it down and rebuilding doesn't resolve the actual ailment.  COJ would be better served shifting the convention center to the courthouse site.  Doing such would not only benefit the Landing, but the Hyatt, the Laura Trio hotel, Omni and other existing businesses in the Elbow and Northbank core.  It would also make more sense to take whatever money you think we'd need to spend on the Landing and use it to facilitate the conversion of a larger vacant structures into housing.