Mayor Curry wants the Landing back

[vicupstate]

After Sleiman bought it, he has proposed renovations, but they've mostly involved razing and replacing the structure with boring buildings, and they've required massive public subsidies, so they're not any closer to happening.

The original plans Sleiman presented did not demo the existing building but instead added several new buildings and uses. I am referring to the "It's About Time' plans. The city did not go along, so everything since then has been demolish and start over.

I personally would he eliminate  the interior mall, open up the courtyard to Laura Street and build a hotel or mixed use building to support the Landing either were the Hogan St. cul de sac is or where the Main St. bridge on ramp is., or perhaps both.   

[FlaBoy]

Interesting read from 2002. 15 years later and we're still debating stuff that led to Rouse getting out of here.   

The Landing may be up for sale
Rouse property still losing money
Jul 29, 2002, 12:00am

"It is not an acceptable return on our investment as it stands today," said Paul Fickinger, vice president and group director of operating properties for Columbia, Md.-based The Rouse Co.

Rouse officials declined to release earnings information, but reports to the city show the Landing loses cash.

Rouse reported a loss of $569,197 last year. It has been losing money on the property since at least 1992.

The numbers help give rise to speculation Rouse soon may try to sell the Landing.

So basically, this thing was a loser from the start.

Rouse's highest performing festival malls typically are in strong tourism markets, including Miami, New Orleans, New York City and Boston, Kiddy said.

"You're either going to have to pull in the tourism and convention business or reinvent what the Landing was originally intended to be," Fickinger said.

So they made a bet on the downtown Jacksonville tourism and convention business and failed well before Sleiman rode into downtown.

Festival malls similar to the Landing, including Rouse's Bayside Marketplace in Miami and the Riverwalk in New Orleans, generate 70 percent of revenues from out-of-market shoppers, namely tourists and convention attendees.

Rouse executives expected similar results at the Landing. But out-of-towners generate 30 percent of the Landing's revenues.

"The project was designed as a festival marketplace, which demands a huge level of tourism traffic," Fickinger said. "[Jacksonville's] tourism and business travel has never been high enough to generate the type of sales this project would require."

At the time of the Landing's 1987 opening, the Prime Osborn Convention Center was open two years and, at 78,500 square feet, was ahead of competitors in convention business. Today, the facility lags behind competitors in size and bookings. Several major shows, including the Cheerleaders of America, which filled 5,500 room nights in 2000, have outgrown the center and headed for markets with bigger facilities.

"It was everybody's understanding Jacksonville was a city on the grow and there would be numerous Class A hotels built Downtown through the late 1980s and 1990s," Fickinger said.

Sounds like the Rouse expectation was the clustering, complementing uses (in this case...hotels) with a compact setting (adjacent to the Landing), to generate tourism oriented pedestrian traffic to support the Landing's retailers. Not attracting suburbanites to downtown. Needless to say, this did not happen in Jacksonville.

The Landing also may be losing potential customers to a frustrating parking issue. The city originally agreed to build and maintain an 800-space, short-term parking garage before the Landing's opening.

Instead, the city struck a deal to allow Landing tenants and customers to park in the Daniels Building garage. Adam's Mark took control of it when it opened last year, and Rouse's privileges expire next year.

The city is negotiating with Humana to allow Landing use of 300 weekday and 375 weekend parking spots in its proposed 1,000-space parking garage to front Hogan and Bay streets. But the project is hung up in discussions with JEA concerning underground utilities.

Meanwhile, last year Jacksonville waived Rouse's $100,000 a year lease payments until builders complete the garage or the city fulfills its obligation to provide parking in another way.

Hmm, so Sleiman isn't totally off his rocker?  Rouse (a national retail developer at the time) was frustrated over the parking situation as well. 

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2002/07/29/story1.html

For me, it just solidifies my opinion that the Landing's condition is less about picking sides between Sleiman's and COJ's redevelopment dreams or the structure itself and more about what downtown Jacksonville can and can't support from a market perspective.

Doesn't this show the necessity of a new convention center at the old Courthouse and Annex? Maybe even new museums/tourist attractions?

[thelakelander]

I visited the library to do some research on the Landing earlier today.  A few interesting facts from the 1980s:

1. COJ visited Harborplace when it was under construction and fell in love with the festival marketplace concept.

2. COJ sold Rouse on Jacksonville's potential as a tourism and convention city.

3. Jacksonville was the smallest city Rouse invested in the festival marketplace concept.  They were banking on the Landing being surrounded by additional hotels and tourist.....like Baltimore's Inner Harbor.

4. Although modeled after Harborplace, the Landing's design was unique to Jacksonville.  The horseshoe shaped pavilions take elements of an Old South -- Jacksonville motif, similar to the wharfs that once lined the St. Johns River.  So it can be argued that the orange roof and large roof signage are iconic elements of the Northbank skyline themselves.

5. Originally Rouse thought the Landing's market would be 60% retail/40% dining.  Fat Tuesday's lease was not renewed because the bar attracted to many young people, as opposed to families.

6. By the late 1990s, they realized it should have been more dining and entertainment.  They planned a renovation that would have opened storefronts to face Independent Drive, but for various reasons, construction never began.

[Keith-N-Jax]

But number 2. Never happened decades later, why?

[thelakelander]

^Godbold's administration sold them on that. The city's priorities changed after Godbold left office.  Fed up, after 16 years of losing money and waiting for a promise that wasn't close to materializing, Rouse cut bait and sold the place to Sleiman.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

^Godbold's administration sold them on that. The city's priorities changed after Godbold left office.  Fed up, after 16 years of losing money and waiting for a promise that wasn't close to materializing, Rouse cut bait and sold the place to Sleiman.

So how to we address the issue of having a different 'vision' every 4-8 years depending on whose sitting in the Mayor's seat?

[thelakelander]

Take the city's hands out of the Landing's redevelopment cookie jar and let Sleiman remodel and run it like a shopping center.  At least this way, the actual market decides its fate. It's pretty obvious that will trend towards dining and entertainment. Time to stop wasting money visioning what it should be.

[KenFSU]

Curious Ennis, what exactly does that mean when Sleiman says "run it like a shopping center" and how does that differ from current status quo?

[thelakelander]

Right now, he's not signing long term leases and he gives away free space.  Running it like a shopping center would mean running it like a revenue generating property.  You'd remodel the existing structure and attempt to secure paying tenants, like Hooters, to sign 10 to 15 year leases.  What this means is that the existing complex stays, with upgrades, and that full redevelopment plan discussed during Alvin Brown's term doesn't happen.  It also means if the market says McDonalds, as long as McDonalds is willing to pay the rent, you'll be getting a McDonalds.

[spuwho]

Right now, he's not signing long term leases and he gives away free space.  Running it like a shopping center would mean running it like a revenue generating property.  You'd remodel the existing structure and attempt to secure paying tenants, like Hooters, to sign 10 to 15 year leases.  What this means is that the existing complex stays, with upgrades, and that full redevelopment plan discussed during Alvin Brown's term doesn't happen.  It also means if the market says McDonalds, as long as McDonalds is willing to pay the rent, you'll be getting a McDonalds.

I can think of plenty of tenants that love strip malls to put there.

McDonalds (with BK not far behind)
Subway
Mattress Firm
Aspen Dental
A Chinese Food take out (or Panda Express)
CVS Drug Store (Walgreens won't go there)
Angel Kids Pediatrics
Newks
Local Computer Store/Cellphone Repair
A card/gift shop that sells Hallmark
AT&T Store
COJ-DMV Express
Game Stop
Little Ceasars
Party Zone
A Dollar Store
Taco Bell
Chik-Fil-A
Tropical Smoothie Cafe
A BAC or Chase branch
Post Office branch with Passport services
Comcast/Xfinity

Go to any strip mall in town and you will find these and more (and more) serving our town wonderfully! <sarcasm>

Maybe they should convert one of the upstairs sections into an IMAX or chain theater.

[Tacachale]

Curious Ennis, what exactly does that mean when Sleiman says "run it like a shopping center" and how does that differ from current status quo?

Right now, he's not signing long term leases and he gives away free space.  Running it like a shopping center would mean running it like a revenue generating property.  You'd remodel the existing structure and attempt to secure paying tenants, like Hooters, to sign 10 to 15 year leases.  What this means is that the existing complex stays, with upgrades, and that full redevelopment plan discussed during Alvin Brown's term doesn't happen.  It also means if the market says McDonalds, as long as McDonalds is willing to pay the rent, you'll be getting a McDonalds.

Maybe, but experience says probably not. Sleiman's "running it like a shopping center" spiel was as much of a threat to COJ as a real idea. He's not going to make upgrades of the kind discussed in this thread that would have a real impact on the facility and support uses that can and do work there. The resources required to rebuild spaces into bigger street-facing boxes, renovating the food court, opening up to Laura Street (or turning it into a food hall), etc. are not massive, but they're beyond everything he's ever committed to the structure in 14 years. Seems more likely we'd see the same nickel and dime stewardship, probably accompanied by claims that the market can only support nickel and dime renters unless he receives massive incentives to tear it down.

[Tacachale]

^Godbold's administration sold them on that. The city's priorities changed after Godbold left office.  Fed up, after 16 years of losing money and waiting for a promise that wasn't close to materializing, Rouse cut bait and sold the place to Sleiman.

So how to we address the issue of having a different 'vision' every 4-8 years depending on whose sitting in the Mayor's seat?

Removing term limits, and electing better leaders on a more consistent basis.

[Tacachale]

After Sleiman bought it, he has proposed renovations, but they've mostly involved razing and replacing the structure with boring buildings, and they've required massive public subsidies, so they're not any closer to happening.

The original plans Sleiman presented did not demo the existing building but instead added several new buildings and uses. I am referring to the "It's About Time' plans. The city did not go along, so everything since then has been demolish and start over.

I personally would he eliminate  the interior mall, open up the courtyard to Laura Street and build a hotel or mixed use building to support the Landing either were the Hogan St. cul de sac is or where the Main St. bridge on ramp is., or perhaps both.

Yes, that was a pretty interesting plan. It never happened, though.

Those suggestions are all good. Also Ennis' idea about converting the main entrance area to a food hall is interesting too. There's a lot that could be done with the Landing if it were just to receive basic renovations.

[thelakelander]

Maybe, but experience says probably not. Sleiman's "running it like a shopping center" spiel was as much of a threat to COJ as a real idea. He's not going to make upgrades of the kind discussed in this thread that would have a real impact on the facility and support uses that can and do work there. The resources required to rebuild spaces into bigger street-facing boxes, renovating the food court, opening up to Laura Street (or turning it into a food hall), etc. are not massive, but they're beyond everything he's ever committed to the structure in 14 years. Seems more likely we'd see the same nickel and dime stewardship, probably accompanied by claims that the market can only support nickel and dime renters unless he receives massive incentives to tear it down.

The bold part basically means the site is screwed. COJ's track record is worse than Sleiman's. The courthouse site is still sitting vacant, Sax Seafood is a homeless camp, the Shipyards still lie empty +15 years after the Trilegacy debacle and we're still waiting for CW Brown's BBQ plant to start producing jobs and product.  Instead of lighting more public money on fire, calling him on his bluff is about the most fiscally responsible thing COJ can do at this point.  As for Sleiman, the rest of his portfolio looks decent.  IMO, what keeps this particular property from recieving the upgrades it needs is the continued push for full redevelopment.

[thelakelander]

Those suggestions are all good. Also Ennis' idea about converting the main entrance area to a food hall is interesting too. There's a lot that could be done with the Landing if it were just to receive basic renovations.

This is basically what Cordish just did with Norfolk's Waterside.