The Landing owners issue ultimatum for future development

[Jax-Nole]

Sleiman said he's been using the Jacksonville Landing to help business owners like Tony Ryals, who is paralyzed and paints pictures by holding a brush in his mouth.

"He's one of the most detailed artist I've ever seen. Guess what? We charge him zero money for rent," said Sleiman.

Sleiman said if he gets the opportunity to rebuild this area, he will ensure all his current tenants who don't pay will have a spot at the Jacksonville Landing.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jacksonville-landing-owners-now-is-critical-point-in-the-landings-life-cycle/533978873

Why do I get the feeling that this doesn't help sell the place to new potential tenants? Like it is a good gesture and all, but Sleiman has so many properties. I don't think he should be giving free rent to anyone in such a high profile location. I wouldn't want to be paying premium rent and have a number of my fellow businesses getting their place for free.

That's just my opinion though. I'm not a business owner, so I don't really know what businesses look for when choosing a location. It just doesn't seem right for the Landing.

[Adam White]

The river is brown due to naturally occurring tannins... not the ocean or pollution.

Of course. I think the argument he was making was that it wouldn't be this color if it were flowing south from the ocean or something. Which doesn't make sense.

[thelakelander]

I wonder what the city's offer and solution was?

Action News Jax contacted the city about the business partnership and they provided us with this statement:

Since taking office, Mayor Lenny Curry has continued to demonstrate his commitment to the development and improvement of downtown Jacksonville. As a notable and recognized landmark, the Landing should be flourishing and contributing to the area's economic growth and success. The mayor and his administration have met with Mr. Sleiman on several occasions to discuss opportunities and options for improvement. Sleiman Enterprises has demonstrated no interest in our offer and solution. Sleiman Enterprises is the obstacle. It is clear that the Landing is being mismanaged. The Mayor will not ask taxpayers to bail out a mismanaged development. Because there is pending litigation, there is no additional information to provide at this time."  - Marsha Oliver, Director, Public Affairs

[FlaBoy]

I wonder what the city's offer and solution was?

Action News Jax contacted the city about the business partnership and they provided us with this statement:

Since taking office, Mayor Lenny Curry has continued to demonstrate his commitment to the development and improvement of downtown Jacksonville. As a notable and recognized landmark, the Landing should be flourishing and contributing to the area's economic growth and success. The mayor and his administration have met with Mr. Sleiman on several occasions to discuss opportunities and options for improvement. Sleiman Enterprises has demonstrated no interest in our offer and solution. Sleiman Enterprises is the obstacle. It is clear that the Landing is being mismanaged. The Mayor will not ask taxpayers to bail out a mismanaged development. Because there is pending litigation, there is no additional information to provide at this time."  - Marsha Oliver, Director, Public Affairs

That is a strong statement. I like it though. It shows they have exhausted their conversations at this time so Sleiman is going to the media to try and strong arm them. The Mayor did not back down. Depending on the solution, I agree with his sentiments.

[CityLife]

The river is brown due to naturally occurring tannins... not the ocean or pollution.

Of course. I think the argument he was making was that it wouldn't be this color if it were flowing south from the ocean or something. Which doesn't make sense.

The point that I was trying to make (not clearly), is that as a massive river it dumps a substantial amount of water into the ocean and does not allow for the type of salt water intrusion that other water bodies do throughout the state. The Jupiter Inlet, Ft. Pierce Inlet, Ponce Inlet, etc have very low flow water bodies going into the ocean, and thereby have clear water upriver from the mouth, particularly at high tide. Semantics and root causes aside, the water in the SJR is about as dark as it gets and does affect usage...There's a reason people travel around the world to visit the Caribbean and South Pacific, and not Mississippi. There's a reason Destin is a huge tourist spot and Wakulla County isn't.

Jax is at a competitive disadvantage from many other coastal areas of the state from a boating perspective. IF the city wants to really activate the river, imo it needs to do something special. If I was wrong, we wouldn't be having this discussion.....

[Tacachale]

The river is brown due to naturally occurring tannins... not the ocean or pollution.

Most of the waterways in Florida that people actually use look pretty much like that, too. The Gulf and the ocean in much of SE Florida are clearer, but the inland waterways (where most people boat) all have pretty much that same dark, tea-stain color because the same dynamics are at play. Not all are as dark as the St. Johns, but the Intracoastal, for instance, looks like that all the way down to Miami. So do the Caloosahatchee River, the Hillsborough River, and the Everglades. I don't think that the color of the St. Johns (or the fact that it flows north) has much, if any, impact on how many people boat on it compared to other factors.

When I made my initial comment, I was speaking to the fact that the St. Johns in Downtown Jax specifically isn't as widely used as other parts of the river and some other waterways in our region (and elsewhere). Most people who do use the St. Johns do it for either fishing or boating (typically in pretty small craft), and Downtown isn't the ideal place for that. In fact you aren't supposed to fish there at all from the land and there aren't many place to even tie a boat up - there's a 2 pier marina at River City Brewing Company, another at Berkman that's presumably private, some slips along the Riverwalk, and that's pretty much it. There's no launch.

On a similar note, Ennis' stuff from Montreal is great, but most of them aren't about either fishing or boating. It's mainly boat tours, places for paddleboarding and kayaking, and creative use of space on land, etc. If the river is wide and fast moving in that area, it wouldn't be surprising if there aren't a ton of small boats out there. I'm sure some of those things are things we could do here in Jax, and others (like jet boating and tours) will be more viable as downtown becomes more of a destination.

[CityLife]

The river is brown due to naturally occurring tannins... not the ocean or pollution.

Most of the waterways in Florida that people actually use look pretty much like that, too. The Gulf and the ocean in much of SE Florida are clearer, but the inland waterways (where most people boat) all have pretty much that same dark, tea-stain color because the same dynamics are at play. Not all are as dark as the St. Johns, but the Intracoastal, for instance, looks like that all the way down to Miami. So do the Caloosahatchee River, the Hillsborough River, and the Everglades. I don't think that the color of the St. Johns (or the fact that it flows north) has much, if any, impact on how many people boat on it compared to other factors.

You might want to leave Jax a bit more if you think the Intercoastal looks like it does in Jax all the way to Miami....

[thelakelander]

On a similar note, Ennis' stuff from Montreal is great, but most of them aren't about either fishing or boating. It's mainly boat tours, places for paddleboarding and kayaking, and creative use of space on land, etc. If the river is wide and fast moving in that area, it wouldn't be surprising if there aren't a ton of small boats out there. I'm sure some of those things are things we could do here in Jax, and others (like jet boating and tours) will be more viable as downtown becomes more of a destination.

Yes, recreational boating isn't an amenity that the majority of the local population has access too. Thus, interaction with the river (at least in downtown), should consider the importance of social equity and access.  This essentially means, finding creative ways to enhance access and interactivity with the river and the land adjacent to it.  For example, even with a current, there are areas that may be suitable to fishing and other uses, such as interactive family friendly playscapes and plazas in green space adjacent to or on the riverwalk.  Also, instead of us determining what the market should be, we should let the market and private enterprise to have more input on downtown's future.  This can happen through easing up on some of our regulations and through the use of clustering improvements and development together, in a manner that builds synergy for this we assume downtown can't support.  From my travels, cities with vibrant waterfronts have found a way to do this.

[Tacachale]

The river is brown due to naturally occurring tannins... not the ocean or pollution.

Most of the waterways in Florida that people actually use look pretty much like that, too. The Gulf and the ocean in much of SE Florida are clearer, but the inland waterways (where most people boat) all have pretty much that same dark, tea-stain color because the same dynamics are at play. Not all are as dark as the St. Johns, but the Intracoastal, for instance, looks like that all the way down to Miami. So do the Caloosahatchee River, the Hillsborough River, and the Everglades. I don't think that the color of the St. Johns (or the fact that it flows north) has much, if any, impact on how many people boat on it compared to other factors.

You might want to leave Jax a bit more if you think the Intercoastal looks like it does in Jax all the way to Miami....

LOL, nice try, but that isn't what I said. I said the inland waterways have the dark tea color across the state because the same processes are at work. "Not all are as dark as the St. Johns", but even in places where the ocean is clearer, the Intracoastal et al are generally noticeably darker, and yes, that's true pretty much down to Miami. Hence you can get shots like this stock photo of Hollywood Lakes where the Intracoastal is dark even though the ocean is crystal blue one block across the barrier island. I can guarantee you that more people are boating on the left side of this photo than the right side.



The point you appear to be making, at least retroactively, is that there are places where there the clearer ocean water comes in and makes inland waterways clearer, which is accurate. It's easy to see the difference in the tannin-colored Oleta River in North Miami, for instance, and the much clearer Biscayne Bay where it flows out. The impact that has on boating is an open question.

[Adam White]

The river is brown due to naturally occurring tannins... not the ocean or pollution.

Most of the waterways in Florida that people actually use look pretty much like that, too. The Gulf and the ocean in much of SE Florida are clearer, but the inland waterways (where most people boat) all have pretty much that same dark, tea-stain color because the same dynamics are at play. Not all are as dark as the St. Johns, but the Intracoastal, for instance, looks like that all the way down to Miami. So do the Caloosahatchee River, the Hillsborough River, and the Everglades. I don't think that the color of the St. Johns (or the fact that it flows north) has much, if any, impact on how many people boat on it compared to other factors.

You might want to leave Jax a bit more if you think the Intercoastal looks like it does in Jax all the way to Miami....

LOL, nice try, but that isn't what I said. I said the inland waterways have the dark tea color across the state because the same processes are at work. "Not all are as dark as the St. Johns", but even in places where the ocean is clearer, the Intracoastal et al are generally noticeably darker, and yes, that's true pretty much down to Miami. Hence you can get shots like this stock photo of Hollywood Lakes where the Intracoastal is dark even though the ocean is crystal blue one block across the barrier island. I can guarantee you that more people are boating on the left side of this photo than the right side.



The point you appear to be making, at least retroactively, is that there are places where there the clearer ocean water comes in and makes inland waterways clearer, which is accurate. It's easy to see the difference in the tannin-colored Oleta River in North Miami, for instance, and the much clearer Biscayne Bay where it flows out. The impact that has on boating is an open question.

But none of that has anything to do with the St Johns river flowing north!

[Tacachale]

On a similar note, Ennis' stuff from Montreal is great, but most of them aren't about either fishing or boating. It's mainly boat tours, places for paddleboarding and kayaking, and creative use of space on land, etc. If the river is wide and fast moving in that area, it wouldn't be surprising if there aren't a ton of small boats out there. I'm sure some of those things are things we could do here in Jax, and others (like jet boating and tours) will be more viable as downtown becomes more of a destination.

Yes, recreational boating isn't an amenity that the majority of the local population has access too. Thus, interaction with the river (at least in downtown), should consider the importance of social equity and access.  This essentially means, finding creative ways to enhance access and interactivity with the river and the land adjacent to it.  For example, even with a current, there are areas that may be suitable to fishing and other uses, such as interactive family friendly playscapes and plazas in green space adjacent to or on the riverwalk.  Also, instead of us determining what the market should be, we should let the market and private enterprise to have more input on downtown's future.  This can happen through easing up on some of our regulations and through the use of clustering improvements and development together, in a manner that builds synergy for this we assume downtown can't support.  From my travels, cities with vibrant waterfronts have found a way to do this.

True, but worth point out that jet boats, tours, etc. aren't something the local population has much access to or interest in, either. That stuff is mainly for tourists. Though building up spots for fishing, sight seeing, play places, etc. would attract both locals and visitors.

[CityLife]

The river is brown due to naturally occurring tannins... not the ocean or pollution.

Most of the waterways in Florida that people actually use look pretty much like that, too. The Gulf and the ocean in much of SE Florida are clearer, but the inland waterways (where most people boat) all have pretty much that same dark, tea-stain color because the same dynamics are at play. Not all are as dark as the St. Johns, but the Intracoastal, for instance, looks like that all the way down to Miami. So do the Caloosahatchee River, the Hillsborough River, and the Everglades. I don't think that the color of the St. Johns (or the fact that it flows north) has much, if any, impact on how many people boat on it compared to other factors.

You might want to leave Jax a bit more if you think the Intercoastal looks like it does in Jax all the way to Miami....

LOL, nice try, but that isn't what I said. I said the inland waterways have the dark tea color across the state because the same processes are at work. "Not all are as dark as the St. Johns", but even in places where the ocean is clearer, the Intracoastal et al are generally noticeably darker, and yes, that's true pretty much down to Miami.

You said, "but the inland waterways (where most people boat) all have pretty much that same dark, tea-stain color because the same dynamics are at play. Not all are as dark as the St. Johns, but the Intracoastal, for instance, looks like that all the way down to Miami."

I don't need to use a stock photo to know what I'm talking about. I currently live part time in South Florida, grew up visiting family all over South Florida and have a mother in law that lives 5 miles south of Ponce Inlet on the Indian River. The water is significantly clearer in all of these areas here than it is in Jax. I'm sure there are some discharge areas where water is murky, but there are many clear spots (and certainly many non-chocolate milk spots). Google Peanut Island and Disappearing Island, look at the amount of boats there on a weekend and get back to me about water quality not impacting boating....

[thelakelander]

I think we get too much into the weeds when trying to pinpoint what every specific activity and option engage the river is (although accommodating tourism activities should play an important role as well).

The Montreal example of jet boat tours was a creative use that worked within their local urban context and river current conditions.  I did not mean to imply that this particular use would be feasible for Jacksonville.  In Jax, there may be a variety of uses well beyond our limited understanding of what's feasible within our local context.  I actually don't believe its our place to decide or micro manage every use that may be feasible within our setting. 

My perspective places more focus on clustering the investments we do make and stripping down the regulatory barriers that stop synergy and individual creativity to having an impact on the downtown setting. When market rate forces are allowed to have an impact on downtown's future, I believe we'll discover things we've never known were even possible in Jacksonville.  However, this approach means taking our hands out of the cookie jar and allowing others to have some crumbs, letting things evolve organically a bit more than they do today.  For whatever reasons, since the Haydon Burns era, politically we've struggled with situations that allow more citizens and market forces to come to the table.  Unfortunately, this results in us wasting millions of tax dollars being spent on the name of revitalization.

[Tacachale]

The river is brown due to naturally occurring tannins... not the ocean or pollution.

Most of the waterways in Florida that people actually use look pretty much like that, too. The Gulf and the ocean in much of SE Florida are clearer, but the inland waterways (where most people boat) all have pretty much that same dark, tea-stain color because the same dynamics are at play. Not all are as dark as the St. Johns, but the Intracoastal, for instance, looks like that all the way down to Miami. So do the Caloosahatchee River, the Hillsborough River, and the Everglades. I don't think that the color of the St. Johns (or the fact that it flows north) has much, if any, impact on how many people boat on it compared to other factors.

You might want to leave Jax a bit more if you think the Intercoastal looks like it does in Jax all the way to Miami....

LOL, nice try, but that isn't what I said. I said the inland waterways have the dark tea color across the state because the same processes are at work. "Not all are as dark as the St. Johns", but even in places where the ocean is clearer, the Intracoastal et al are generally noticeably darker, and yes, that's true pretty much down to Miami.

You said, "but the inland waterways (where most people boat) all have pretty much that same dark, tea-stain color because the same dynamics are at play. Not all are as dark as the St. Johns, but the Intracoastal, for instance, looks like that all the way down to Miami."

I don't need to use a stock photo to know what I'm talking about. I currently live part time in South Florida, grew up visiting family all over South Florida and have a mother in law that lives 5 miles south of Ponce Inlet on the Indian River. The water is significantly clearer in all of these areas here than it is in Jax. I'm sure there are some discharge areas where water is murky, but there are many clear spots (and certainly many non-chocolate milk spots). Google Peanut Island and Disappearing Island, look at the amount of boats there on a weekend and get back to me about water quality not impacting boating....

Well, you've changed your tack so many times in this discussion that it's hard to reckon what you're trying to say Your initial point was that due to the dark water and the fact that the river flows north, local boaters have better options nearby. I don't believe either of those are significant factors, for the reasons I and others gave, but it does seem obvious that in Downtown Jax at least, there are a lot fewer boaters (and people in general) than in other parts of the region or elsewhere. Your subsequent argument that the water color contributes to fewer people boating in the Jax area compared to other parts of the state may well be true, but I don't know what your point is. Jacksonville isn't the vacationing hotspot that other parts of Florida are, either. We wouldn't have to compete with those places to build a working waterfront.

[Tacachale]

I think we get too much into the weeds when trying to pinpoint what every specific activity and option engage the river is (although accommodating tourism activities should play an important role as well).

The Montreal example of jet boat tours was a creative use that worked within their local urban context and river current conditions.  I did not mean to imply that this particular use would be feasible for Jacksonville.  In Jax, there may be a variety of uses well beyond our limited understanding of what's feasible within our local context.  I actually don't believe its our place to decide or micro manage every use that may be feasible within our setting. 

My perspective places more focus on clustering the investments we do make and stripping down the regulatory barriers that stop synergy and individual creativity to having an impact on the downtown setting. When market rate forces are allowed to have an impact on downtown's future, I believe we'll discover things we've never known were even possible in Jacksonville.  However, this approach means taking our hands out of the cookie jar and allowing others to have some crumbs, letting things evolve organically a bit more than they do today.  For whatever reasons, since the Haydon Burns era, politically we've struggled with situations that allow more citizens and market forces to come to the table.  Unfortunately, this results in us wasting millions of tax dollars being spent on the name of revitalization.

You're right when it comes to the tourist stuff, but I doubt most of the rest (piers, green space, playgrounds, kayaking spots) could or would be done without the public sector taking the lead and fronting most of the costs. Probably why more of it hasn't been done.