DEAR GANNET FLEMING, JTA and CITY HALL

[Ocklawaha]

Might as well bite the bullet y'all, one of the reasons we ran with the Yukon Ghost Town Story  http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/883/120/
is the fact that Yukon is still very much a part of the local scene. Just look at the threads. Still has the church, trailer park, Pub and Great Seafood place. Not to mention some big rail customers in the lumber business. The sidings that end there are called YUKON. The location of the old Station is called YUKON. The CSX dispatchers don't call it Target or NAS JAX they too call it YUKON. YUKON HAS A NAME. Let's change the maps to reflect that.

Second beef of the day, WHY-WHY-WHY would you put a Commuter Rail Station at Prudential Drive near the San Marco Skyway Station and not at Atlantic in San Marco - and extend the Skyway to meet it there? If I ride the commuter train from Union Terminal to the San Marco Station, you might as well pull down the Skyway as you effectively shorthaul it, and duplicate it, and will thus kill it. If the idea is to feed people into downtown, why not give the Southbank community a shot at getting off or on the Train where the beach highways converge? Why not in Downtown San Marco? Why not board the Skyway in the neighborhood rather then race it to the next station? Run your simple model on Atlantic and the FEC in San Marco, and you'll get a nice blip, run a detailed model on it and it's going to blow you away!

Third Beef of the Day, still no word on this proposal to split the terminal track with the Northside and SW lines coming in NORTH of the Terminal and the SE line + Amtrak coming in SOUTH of the terminal. Will someone step up and take responsibility and at least say, "we're thinking about it...?" I know this is too early in the game to be really factual on any details, but fella's it's also early in the game to catch a bad case of Jacksonville Transit Insanity.

Cheering for you on the sidelines!

OCKLAWAHA

[cline]

Let's change the maps to reflect that.

Not sure that this is the responsibility of Gannet Fleming, JTA or City Hall.  You might want to direct your comment to Rand McNally or NAVTEQ.

[rjp2008]

Could you explain your Skyway comment again, perhaps with a picture?

I rode the 'way to Kings Station yesterday, and noticed it would be difficult to continue an elevated track directly south - after going under/over 95, the JEA power station blocks further progress, followed by the San Marco Library.

If you turn the Skyway parallel to Kings Street, eventually it duplicates the direction of the CSX rail line.

[uptowngirl]

Is anyone aware of the Urban Core Planning District Community Visioning meeting tonight? The topic is Transportation and Connectivity/

6-9PM @the Brentwood Community Center

[thelakelander]

Second beef of the day, WHY-WHY-WHY would you put a Commuter Rail Station at Prudential Drive near the San Marco Skyway Station and not at Atlantic in San Marco - and extend the Skyway to meet it there? If I ride the commuter train from Union Terminal to the San Marco Station, you might as well pull down the Skyway as you effectively shorthaul it, and duplicate it, and will thus kill it. If the idea is to feed people into downtown, why not give the Southbank community a shot at getting off or on the Train where the beach highways converge? Why not in Downtown San Marco? Why not board the Skyway in the neighborhood rather then race it to the next station? Run your simple model on Atlantic and the FEC in San Marco, and you'll get a nice blip, run a detailed model on it and it's going to blow you away!

I assume this was done to get higher ridership numbers for their initial ridership forcast.  A station at that site would benefit from the high employment base of the Southbank.  Since the initial ridership forecast did not include bus connections shuttling passengers in, the Atlantic Blvd location may have been lower. 

Now I have a question.  Does it make sense to have two stops and alternate the stops with trains?  Ex. Train A leaves Union Terminal at 4:30pm, stops at San Marco Blvd and then continues to Emerson.  Train B leaves Union Terminal at 5:00pm, skips San Marco Blvd, stops at Atlantic and then continues to Emerson.  Btw, I agree that it makes since to extend the Skyway to Atlantic Blvd.

Third Beef of the Day, still no word on this proposal to split the terminal track with the Northside and SW lines coming in NORTH of the Terminal and the SE line + Amtrak coming in SOUTH of the terminal. Will someone step up and take responsibility and at least say, "we're thinking about it...?" I know this is too early in the game to be really factual on any details, but fella's it's also early in the game to catch a bad case of Jacksonville Transit Insanity.

Cheering for you on the sidelines![/color][/b]

OCKLAWAHA

This does not make sense.  Can you provide a quick sketch?  I assume this is an idea that should die a quick death.

[Ocklawaha]

I assume this was done to get higher ridership numbers for their initial ridership forecast.  A station at that site would benefit from the high employment base of the Southbank.  Since the initial ridership forecast did not include bus connections shuttling passengers in, the Atlantic Blvd location may have been lower. 

Now I have a question.  Does it make sense to have two stops and alternate the stops with trains?  Ex. Train A leaves Union Terminal at 4:30pm, stops at San Marco Blvd and then continues to Emerson.  Train B leaves Union Terminal at 5:00pm, skips San Marco Blvd, stops at Atlantic and then continues to Emerson.  Btw, I agree that it makes since to extend the Skyway to Atlantic Blvd.

Part One: I'm sure that WAS the case with the "simple" ridership models the current GF study is using. The factor of the TWO major beach arterial roads + the chance to add a Northbound-Southbound ramp to I-95 at Atlantic make this stop just too good to pass up. Add to that that San Marco itself evolved into the downtown of the Old City of South Jacksonville and is today, arguably our most vibrant inner city community.

Part Two: This is the basics of a railroad Que Jumper, it is VERY COMMON on transit systems all over the world. It can be used to create express services, to regulate loads or to shorten or Lengthen head-ways or travel times. An example would be a "ST AUGUSTINE EXPRESS" which stops only at Union Terminal - San Marco and University then runs non-stop to St. Augustine at 5:30 PM. At almost the same time 5:40 a SAINT AUGUSTINE LOCAL leave and stops at Prudential, San Marco, Jackson Square etc...  Other combinations could be as you stated, an example is the Blue trains stop at XYZ and the red trains at ABC, the green trains XAZC.
This type of thing is as open ended as the imagination and the market will bear.

This does not make sense.  Can you provide a quick sketch?  I assume this is an idea that should die a quick death

This is what is "out" in Rumor mill as the plan coming from Gannet Fleming. My only guess is they have been told to keep their hands off the Convention Center, (which is already disfunctional due to size).

The logical path of this type of plan would be the Convention Center Stays, Amtrak Returns and perhaps adds a through train on the Florida East Coast. The FEC train frankly gives us a leg up with improvements to capacity for our own commuter rail on the same route. Only the Amtrak and SE/FEC Commuter line could use the very limited 4 track terminal. We are a service stop for Amtrak, 30 minutes currently, and it is not uncommon for 2 trains to be in the station together even in the current location. But the current station is so samll they can only "work" one train at a time and there is no way around the first to get to the second! This station address some of that, it would include removal of all fill dirt (AND TUNNELS) down to near water-level, on ground that was once McCoys Creek Swamp. A new overhead corridor would connect the tracks with the Northside Skyway and Commuter Rail via a 500 foot Sky Walk. The 4 track terminal would be accessible at any point, and the tracks could be switched from both ends. However, the N and SW or W Commuter Rail, would be a dead end-track station (Properly Called HEAD, HEAD HOUSE or STUB TRACK terminals, something that went out of vogue with coal burning steam engines. It would also subject the entire terminal to tropical storm flooding such as those of the 1890's that wrecked the original massive train shed.

The end result of this plan will be a crippled commuter system, long connections, flooding (AGAIN) of the terminal property, abandonment of the tunnels, Amtrak by-passes Jacksonville for some new Terminal in Orlando (already in the State Plan) and splits it's trains 3 ways from there. One section working West to Tampa, A section South to Sarasota/Ft. Myers, and a new rail line and section running to Titusville and hence South on the FEC. The losers in this case are NORTH FLORIDA, including JACKSONVILLE, St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, Palm Coast-Bunnell, Ocala, Gainesville, Waldo, Starke, Wildwood, Bushnell.


I'll just call this the Bob Mann - Terminal Plan or the OCKLAWAHA TERMINAL. My only guess here is that someone that has worked on a railroad and doesn't give a damn for short sighted planning, got wind of this mess!

The logical path of this type of plan would be the Convention Center is removed to a new site, where it has room to grow.  Amtrak Returns and perhaps adds a dozen through trains on the Florida East Coast, CSX and NS. The FEC-CSX trains frankly gives us a leg up with improvements to capacity for our own commuter rail on the same routes.  Amtrak and ALL of our commuter rail operations could use this 10 track terminal, including perhaps 2 streetcar/LRT tracks or platforms. We are a service stop for Amtrak, 30 minutes currently, and it is not uncommon for 2 trains to be in the station together even in the current location. But the current station is so samll they can only "work" one train at a time and there is no way around the first to get to the second! This station address all of that, it would include replacement of all fill dirt AND EXTENSION of the TUNNELS to within the Station Proper, as well as a new tunnel under Bay Street that would link the entire Skyway-Bus-Rail Corridor. No Sky Walk would be built, concourses would rise from the tunnels below, between every 2 tracks just as they have since 1919. The 10 track terminal would be accessable at any point, and the tracks could be switched from both ends. . It would also subject the entire terminal to a required re-re-building of the Park-Lee Street Viaduct in order to clear the trains below. A plus of this idea is that the new Viaduct could carry our streetcars between 5-Points and Downtown. 

The end result of this plan will be an expandable commuter system, cross platform connections, cross platform LRT/Streetcar connections, Greyhound-Trailways moves into the former convention center space outlined in white, showing the E-W concourse remains and the convention area is cut down to make room for bus parking and service as well as bus platforms. This reduces the distance from Amtrak and Commuter Rail to Intercity bus by 2 city blocks. Flooding of the terminal property, abandonment of the tunnels, is avoided in all but extreme acts-of-God. Amtrak by-passes any new "Orlando - Florida Central Station"  for the new Jacksonville Terminal. The State plan to make Orlando the Rail hub of the Southeast, goes to hell in a handbasket saving the taxpayers Billions of dollars reinvested in new train service that benefits Orlando-Tampa-Miami corridors. Amtrak returns to tradition with more choices and splits it's trains 5 ways from there. One section working West to Tallahassee-New Orleans, another Southwest to Waldo-Oacla-Bushnell-Lakeland-Tampa, A section South to Sarasota/Ft. Myers from Tampa or Lakeland, another section leaves for Miami/Tampa or Ft. Myers/Sarasota via the Roosevelt Blvd CSX mainline to Orange Park - Palatka - Deland - Orlando. A new rail operation on the Florida East Coast running south to St. Augustine - Daytona -  Titusville and hence South on the FEC SOUTHERN speedway, from Cincinnati - Atlanta - Macon - Valdosta and Jacksonville. losers in this case are (maybe a few jobs in Orlando, but the Commuter Rail and Corridor benefits of free space by working Amtrak in Jacksonville should more then balance this out). The winners are FLORIDA in general, and all of North Florida-South Georgia, JACKSONVILLE, St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, Palm Coast-Bunnell, Ocala, Gainesville, Waldo, Starke, Wildwood, Bushnell.

Not sure that this is the responsibility of Gannet Fleming, JTA or City Hall.  You might want to direct your comment to Rand McNally or NAVTEQ.

Lastly, YUKON as a name is very much on Gannett Flemings plate, Rand Mc Nally, GIS, USN, Earth links, etc... already have it right. It is a simple situation of a out-of-town consulting firm not knowing the local names and spaces. Trouble is unless you are from that area of town no one else does either. Example where is "Oceanway? San Succi? Wesconnett? Cedar Hills? But if this is not caught now and their OWN proposal maps changed, it will be rubber stamped by JTA or FDOT and when the stations go up we'll get "TARGET-NAS JAX" or some such. It has happened before and twice BIG TIME locally. When Seaboard System merged with Chessie, there was a contest to name the new railroad. Everyone had their favorite but the attorneys just used the initials CSX. DUH?  Check out the village of Oklawaha on the state highway map, someone didn't know his history and dropped the "c". When I wrote to the state about the enviomentally sensitive river being misspelled on every new bridge (following the newer village spelling) the signs came down and Tallahassee learned what an OCKLAWAHA is.

Does this help explain the situation?[/color][/b]

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Could you explain your Skyway comment again, perhaps with a picture?

I rode the 'way to Kings Station yesterday, and noticed it would be difficult to continue an elevated track directly south - after going under/over 95, the JEA power station blocks further progress, followed by the San Marco Library.

If you turn the Skyway parallel to Kings Street, eventually it duplicates the direction of the CSX rail line.

Skyway in Yellow

Bus Quickway or BRT in Blue

Commuter Rail in Red

Yes, I am well aware of the JEA facility, but their are still several old rights-of-way back to the tracks. BTW, the tracks from Downtown (Northside) all across the Southside - to Miami - are FEC or FLORIDA EAST COAST RAILWAY.
They have nothing to do with CSX but interchange cars and count dollars. LOL.

Again this is a (BOB MANN - CONCEPT and PLAN) so Transit is spread out to interlink and connect. Gives us BRT to the 4-7,000 employees on the West side of the Southbank, ties it all to the Skyway at both San Marco and Kings Avenue, and ties all of it together at Atlantic. ATLANTIC? Yes, an ideal spot to start an LRT line toward the Beach, along with the Arlington Expressway. Imagine??? REGENCY JUNCTION? Maybe already the 3Rd busiest JTA interchange with LRT.

Let me know if you are still confused, I want everyone up to speed.



OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Here's the plan for the transportation center thats been promoted over the last few years.  From an Amtrak/commuter rail standpoint, this makes more since than splitting the tracks.


Splitting the tracks for the sake of working around the convention center kills its expansion opportunities at that site as well.  We need to find a way to get that convention center out of there.  If we don't both will struggle.

[ProjectMaximus]

I vote for the OCKLAWAHA TERMINAL. Where do I sign?

[Tripoli1711]

I agree, the convention center must go from that spot.  It holds up progress in this area, and is woefully too small as we all know.  One of the more interesting ideas I have seen floated on here is to put a new convention center where the current county courthouse is once the new courthouse is built.  Is that location big enough to build the square footage that we need to have a convention center that fits a city of our size today and beyond?  It is so important to get it moved from where it is now, doing so opens up a vast array of options.

[thelakelander]

Grand Rapids has a 1 million square foot convention center on a similar sized site.  We could not put something the size of Orlando's on that property, but we don't need to either.  The courthouse site, with Hyatt serving as the convention center hotel is big enough, if designed in an urban manner.  If we want a repeat of the Prime Osborn with a large surface lot.  Then the site is too small.