Did JTA let one get away, or is Town Center just STUPID?

[Ocklawaha]

I just went over the site plan for the Markets at Town Center and the Pedestrian trail that will connect it with the office park South of JTB. It was another "OH MY GOD MOMENT!" How do we let these things get by us? Here is another example of just a little cooperation and the whole JTA system could start looking like BRT-LITE on the "cheap". But NO, now we'll probably have to build a $50 Million dollar suspension bridge over the highway complete with busways and air-conditioned stations because someone at Town Center was too thoughless to THINK ABOUT TRANSIT. Oh I forgot, "OIL MONEY!!"


Here is a 5 minute scribble that I think is a better idea...The worst of it is we see this pattern repeated all over the city. Dig up a road, then come back and do it again... Lay down new medians, then lets go back and lay down streetcar tracks and dig up the medians... Build a nice pedestrian friendly area, then fail to access it... build a Southban garage, but you have to go downtown to get to it... COME ON PEOPLE! DAMN!

OCKLAWAHA

[rjp2008]

What's done is done.

However, the Skinner land across the street with the great lake could be made into something...

[Traveller]

Maybe the Town Center and its tenants don't want to attract the type of customer who would take public transit to go shopping.  Like it or not, in Jacksonville, public transit is still associated with "poor", and to a retailer, "poor" is associated with "more likely to loiter and cause trouble than buy a new Brooks Brothers suit or Bebe dress".

[Doctor_K]

Especially since the 'poor' are not the target demographic of the Town Center.  Good point.

[Captain Zissou]

Even in Jax, I don't think rail transit would carry that stigma.  I would be the first to sign up for something like that and I hope people don't consider me a 'bum'.  A rail stop for SJTC would do wonders.

[Ocklawaha]

Our perception's of Mass Transit will change with the remake of the system. However the remake of the system is being held hostage by our presumptions and prejudice's which block the advanced theory by which to remake the very transit system we complain about.

"We have met the enemy, and they are US!"

Time to get a broom!



Ocklawaha

[brainstormer]

I feel your pain Ock.  I swear using common sense is unattainable for many in JAX (city government and developers are all included).  I used to like the SJTC when it first opened.  You could actually park and then easily walk, eat and shop without having to return to your car.  Now I feel like the whole area is so out of control that I really avoid it all together.  Going there is no longer a pleasant experience.  It has just become another suburban disaster.  If the developers had been forward thinking they would have included a streetcar line that ran down the middle so shoppers could easily get from one side to the other.  Streetcars don't have the "poor" look, like buses and they would have made the shopping experience even more fun and pleasant.  This attractive streetcar line could have ended at a transit station including rail and bus.  With more thought, the streetcar line could even have been extended to the business and residential areas along Gate Parkway creating a unique, vibrant area within our city.  Perhaps they don't have the ability to dream as I do

[Steve]

Maybe the Town Center and its tenants don't want to attract the type of customer who would take public transit to go shopping.  Like it or not, in Jacksonville, public transit is still associated with "poor", and to a retailer, "poor" is associated with "more likely to loiter and cause trouble than buy a new Brooks Brothers suit or Bebe dress".

In cities with bus only service, yes.  However, the sediment changes dramatically when you add rail.  Charlotte is a great example of this.  This was the city that Mike Miller and JTA claimed that people were rallying around killing rail transit, only to watch it pass 70-30.  Now, CATS (Charlotte Area Transportation System) is dealing with another problem - not enough capacity on trains.

[thelakelander]

The CATS trains were packed yesterday.  That's a sweet rail system they are running in Charlotte.  My guess is a new rail system in Jax would be just as popular as the one in "less compact" Charlotte, if properly planned and implemented.

[copperfiend]

Is the Town Center just stupid? Based on the crowds they get every day, I'd say no. It is a very profitable venture.

[Traveller]

In cities with bus only service, yes.  However, the sediment changes dramatically when you add rail.

I agree.  In the Washington, DC area, several upscale retail centers are Metro accesible, including Pentagon City, Ballston Common, and to a lesser extent, White Flint and Springfield Malls.  It's seen as a positive rather than a negative.

[CS Foltz]

JTA did let one get away! As has been demonstrated time and time again.....there just does not seem to be any vision or planning from much of anything! Just the developers hard at work with their own vision.....as in lining their pockets. One of these days the public will clean house when they get tired of being hung out to dry by a City run by the GOB (thats Good Ole Boy) Network!

[JeffreyS]

The perception problem is real and I do not believe retailers will be the one to take the first step.

[nicktooch]

having 2 jobs at SJTC, u wouldn't believe the number of ppl that ask if there is a shuttle... i usually say no, and once they leave i say "you could use the exercise."  call it harsh thinking but i can walk this mall in no time and not be winded.  works up an appetite and there are plenty of boring restaurants to choose from right?

[coredumped]

To answer your question - YES! The town center is STUPID! Stupid as far as planning goes. There's no parking, stops signs everywhere, medians that force you to go the opposite direction you want to go - it's terrible. It's successful, but logistically, it's a nightmare & I avoid it every chance I get (valet parking for stores available at regency? Comon!)

Also, if I recall UNF wanted their shuttle ( http://capricorn.anf.unf.edu/shuttle/ ) to go the town center but the town center said UNF couldn't put a stop out there.