Ranking: Jacksonville 7th least recession-recovered large city

[thelakelander]

You know, just once I would like to come on Metro Jacksonville and get a response of something other than, "That won't work in Jax because of X".  How about a little can-do spirit?  How about, "Hey, other cities are doing it maybe we can/should also."

This is the exact reason Jax should had an exhibition hall next door to the Hyatt, IMO. However, the mere mention of convention center makes people start questioning and coming up with reasons why Jax should not be in the business.....when it already is.

[vicupstate]

^^

It really isn't in the business. The small size of the current facility precludes major events. What the POCC does get is events that bring in mostly locals, which don't need Hotel rooms.

Adding an exhibition hall next door to Hyatt might do the trick, but it would probably need to be bigger than the POCC space (78k SF). 

 

[BenderRodriguez]

I'm just wondering why building hotels off of a major highway (I-95), which happens to be super close to a major metropolitan area (downtown Jax), seems to not be a good idea to you lot... I'm going to need a genuine explanation for this. Kinda seems like a no-brainer to me. $175+/night at the Hyatt means I'm not spending the night in downtown Jax and exploring the night life.

[Tacachale]

I'm just wondering why building hotels off of a major highway (I-95), which happens to be super close to a major metropolitan area (downtown Jax), seems to not be a good idea to you lot... I'm going to need a genuine explanation for this. Kinda seems like a no-brainer to me. $175+/night at the Hyatt means I'm not spending the night in downtown Jax and exploring the night life.

Because you can't make developers just build hotels. The city could offer them incentives, but that would have to be weighed against other uses of the money.

[Adam White]

I'm just wondering why building hotels off of a major highway (I-95), which happens to be super close to a major metropolitan area (downtown Jax), seems to not be a good idea to you lot... I'm going to need a genuine explanation for this. Kinda seems like a no-brainer to me. $175+/night at the Hyatt means I'm not spending the night in downtown Jax and exploring the night life.

If Jax had more nightlife downtown, there might be more hotels.

[thelakelander]

^^

It really isn't in the business. The small size of the current facility precludes major events. What the POCC does get is events that bring in mostly locals, which don't need Hotel rooms.

Adding an exhibition hall next door to Hyatt might do the trick, but it would probably need to be bigger than the POCC space (78k SF). 

Yes, there's enough space at the courthouse site to add a +100k SF exhibition hall. 

[thelakelander]

I'm just wondering why building hotels off of a major highway (I-95), which happens to be super close to a major metropolitan area (downtown Jax), seems to not be a good idea to you lot... I'm going to need a genuine explanation for this. Kinda seems like a no-brainer to me. $175+/night at the Hyatt means I'm not spending the night in downtown Jax and exploring the night life.

Because you can't make developers just build hotels. The city could offer them incentives, but that would have to be weighed against other uses of the money.

This. It's the same reason you just can't make Six Flags build a downtown amusement park or get Ben Carter to open a downtown version of the SJTC.  If you don't have a market for them to make money off their investment, they aren't coming.

The most effective thing the city can do to entice private development is invest/design public projects that help build a critical mass of activity.  So if you want that hotel, you may need to subsidize a Laura Trio, invest in your convention facilities, activate dead spaces along the river, etc.

[spuwho]

There is demand for hotels - they are being built everywhere, except downtown and the downtown adjacent neighborhoods.  The funny thing about hotels is their economic impact when clustered together.  This is amplified when they are clustered together in a walkable area.  1000 different people every night looking for places to eat and ways to be entertained.

OKC's recovery is based on the growth of the energy sector.

OKC had a major boom in growth in the 1920's as the oil money flowed freely.  It hung around until the 1970's and then the oil shocks almost killed them.

While OKC looks vibrant today, I can tell you how "dead" and lifeless downtown was in 1996-1997 as a I worked a probate in district court.  Chesapeake Energy Arena was still only footings and the downtown revival plan was still a piece of paper.

They were successful because #1. They stuck to their plan (unlike Jax) #2. energy sector recovered due to fracking

COJ can't stick to a plan. COJ has no golden egg that provides the tax revenue outside of Shad Khan.

I am no stranger to Oklahoma. Mom was born there, relatives still live there, though many moved away in the 1970's when things got bad.

[jaxjags]

Had to make a trip to Regency today. On way back I drove to Everbank Field, down Bay Street, down Riverside and back on I95. I tried to think of what the differences there were from my first stay here in 1989-1994. Despite a long depression during that time some big changes have occurred and more are in works. If I tried to list them all it would take a whole page. I believe even Kerry would be impressed. If Laura Street Trio and Shipyards truly get off the ground, and some better transportation connectivity actually is done, Bay Street and Laura Street may just be the start.  Somehow we need to build off the brewing and arts scene developing here.

[vicupstate]

Info. on OKC's MAPS initiative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Area_Projects_Plan

MAPS, was a $350 million public works and redevelopment project in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma during the middle to late 1990s.  In the 20 years since its inception "nearly $5 billion in economic impact can be attributed to the original MAPS program. This represents a nearly 10-fold return on the city's original investment.

The original MAPS program comprised nine projects that took 10 years to complete, and were chosen to appeal to a wide variety of city residents and also revitalize the city's downtown:

renovations to the Civic Center Music Hall including the 2,500 seat Thelma Gaylord Performing Arts Theater, the 290 seat Freedie Little Theater, the 100 seat City Space Theater, the 5,000 sf Minders Hall of Mirrors, and the 3,100 sf Joel Levine Rehearsal Hall.

renovations to the The Myriad (Now Cox Convention Center) including a 100,000 sf expansion of the convention space. The Cox center also includes a 15,000 seat multi-purpose arena that is home to the Oklahoma City Barons hockey team (the top farm team of the Edmonton Oilers).

renovations to the Oklahoma State Fairgrounds

construction of the Chickasaw Bricktown Ballpark home of the Oklahoma City Dodgers, the Triple-A affiliate of the Los Angeles Dodgers Major League Baseball team. The park has seating for up to 13,066 fans and currently utilizes a seating capacity of 9,000 for Dodgers games.

construction of the 18,203 seat Ford Center (now called the Chesapeake Energy Arena), an indoor multipurpose sports arena. The arena was completed for several years before it became an important aspect of plans in 2006 through 2008 by local businessman Clay Bennett, who lead the purchase of the Seattle SuperSonics, and later moved the basketball team to Oklahoma City.[7] The NBA team is now called the Oklahoma City Thunder.

construction of the "Bricktown Canal" which provided a core investment to transform a former warehouse district into an entertainment district; with "recreation activities available in Bricktown are currently ‹2009› estimated to draw 2.9 million visits annually"[8]

construction of a riverfront and recreational dams on the North Canadian River (this section of the river has been renamed the Oklahoma River, its lower section is known as the Boathouse District, the headquarters for USA Canoe/Kayak and a training center for USRowing)

a new Library/learning Center, later called the Ronald J. Norick Downtown Library, a four-story main library to replace a facility that had been built in 1951

development of the Oklahoma Spirit Trolleys, a trolley-replica bus network

MAPS 3 is a $777 million program, approved by voters in 2009 with 54% of the vote (the same percentage as the Original MAPS.)[10] The one-cent sales tax initiative began in April 2010 and ends in December 2017. After a year of public meetings organized by Mayor Mick Cornett, there developed a consensus that a future MAPS program should focus on projects that improved the Quality of Life in Oklahoma City. Hundreds of citizens suggested projects to be considered; through a series of public meetings eight projects were eventually selected to be included in the MAPS 3 proposal.

New Downtown Convention Center
New Downtown Public Park - 70 acres, including festival areas
New Modern Streetcar/Transit system and an inter-modal transit hub
New Senior Health and Wellness Centers; multiple structures in various parts of the city designed to encourage healthy lifestyles and serve as a gathering place for active seniors
Improvements to the Oklahoma River including a whitewater training facility and various upgrades to the world-class rowing racecourse
Improvements to the Oklahoma State Fair Grounds including replacing public event buildings
Expansion of Trails system that interconnects the city's major parks for walking and biking
Expansion of neighborhood sidewalks to create a more walkable community

[Kerry]

Jacksonville had a similar public improvement program downtown:  Times Union Center, arena, baseball grounds, new courthouse, downtown library, museum of modern art, north and southbank riverwalks.

Another thing OKC has done that would go along ways for downtown Jax is returning all the downtown streets to two-way and getting rid of the elevated freeway (see Hart ramps and Arlington Expressway).

http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/Project-180-Oklahoma-City.htm

None of this is outside the capabilities of Jax and Jax has a much better urban core to start from than OKC did when they got started.

[Tacachale]

Jacksonville had a similar public improvement program downtown:  Times Union Center, arena, baseball grounds, new courthouse, downtown library, museum of modern art, north and southbank riverwalks.

Another thing OKC has done that would go along ways for downtown Jax is returning all the downtown streets to two-way and getting rid of the elevated freeway (see Hart ramps and Arlington Expressway).

http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/Project-180-Oklahoma-City.htm

None of this is outside the capabilities of Jax and Jax has a much better urban core to start from than OKC did when they got started.

We did get redevelopment projects started around that time (two actually, River City Renaissance and the Better Jacksonville Plan) and things are a lot better downtown than they were in the early 90s. But we weren't able to maintain the momentum leading up to the Great Recession, and we were hit extremely hard by it. As the original article says, we still haven't totally recovered even as there's been more momentum in Downtown and the urban core. Inconsistent leadership is also a big factor in our failure to capitalize on earlier successes.

[Kerry]

Jacksonville had a similar public improvement program downtown:  Times Union Center, arena, baseball grounds, new courthouse, downtown library, museum of modern art, north and southbank riverwalks.

Another thing OKC has done that would go along ways for downtown Jax is returning all the downtown streets to two-way and getting rid of the elevated freeway (see Hart ramps and Arlington Expressway).

http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/Project-180-Oklahoma-City.htm

None of this is outside the capabilities of Jax and Jax has a much better urban core to start from than OKC did when they got started.

We did get redevelopment projects started around that time (two actually, River City Renaissance and the Better Jacksonville Plan) and things are a lot better downtown than they were in the early 90s. But we weren't able to maintain the momentum leading up to the Great Recession, and we were hit extremely hard by it. As the original article says, we still haven't totally recovered even as there's been more momentum in Downtown and the urban core. Inconsistent leadership is also a big factor in our failure to capitalize on earlier successes.

Consistent leadership is a big part of it.  I think to go along with that is the makeup of City government.  Jax has 19 Council Members while OKC only has 8.  Credit and blame is real easy to assign in OKC which keeps Council Members from going off the rails.

[Tacachale]

Jacksonville had a similar public improvement program downtown:  Times Union Center, arena, baseball grounds, new courthouse, downtown library, museum of modern art, north and southbank riverwalks.

Another thing OKC has done that would go along ways for downtown Jax is returning all the downtown streets to two-way and getting rid of the elevated freeway (see Hart ramps and Arlington Expressway).

http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/Project-180-Oklahoma-City.htm

None of this is outside the capabilities of Jax and Jax has a much better urban core to start from than OKC did when they got started.

We did get redevelopment projects started around that time (two actually, River City Renaissance and the Better Jacksonville Plan) and things are a lot better downtown than they were in the early 90s. But we weren't able to maintain the momentum leading up to the Great Recession, and we were hit extremely hard by it. As the original article says, we still haven't totally recovered even as there's been more momentum in Downtown and the urban core. Inconsistent leadership is also a big factor in our failure to capitalize on earlier successes.

Consistent leadership is a big part of it.  I think to go along with that is the makeup of City government.  Jax has 19 Council Members while OKC only has 8.  Credit and blame is real easy to assign in OKC which keeps Council Members from going off the rails.

Continuity in the chief executive's office is another big fact. OKC has apparently had the same City Manager for over 16 years. Jacksonville has had 4 mayors in that amount of time, including a one-termer (Brown) and another who's in his first term now (Curry). Many (though certainly not all) of our mayors haven't done a great job building on what their predecessors did.

[Kerry]

Now doubt Jaxleadership needs to get its act together.  In OKC the watershed moment was in 1991 when OKC lost a bidding war with Indianapolis for a United Airlines Maintenance facility.  That is when the City woke up and concluded that instead of putting millions of dollars into a third party and hope for spin-off development, the City could just use that money themselves to rebuild the City and eliminate the middle man.

Jax should keep that in mind while they are considering handing over however many millions to Khan.