Ranking: Jacksonville 7th least recession-recovered large city

[Kerry]

Reading the last few comments - maybe Jax just lacks a population who gives a crap about anything.  Self-defeat works every time.

I just think the "build it and they will come" mentality never works. Hotels (and total number of hotel rooms) should correlate to the health of downtown (and the wider city). Develop downtown and hotels will be built. As it is, there is close to nothing downtown. If Jax is experiencing a shortage of available hotel rooms downtown, then I would agree we need more. If not, I would say we need to do more to make downtown attractive to visitors.

They are already coming though.  They are just 'coming' someplace else.  Sitting around and waiting for something to happen isn't the answer.   If doing nothing worked downtown Jax would be thriving.  Attractions aren't going to locate downtown if there aren't people there.  People WILL go where the hotels are because...well...that is where the bed is.  No one is pulling off on Pecan Park road and sleeping in their car.  They are going to where the hotel is.

The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town.  Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them.  That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.

[remc86007]

The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town.  Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them.  That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.

I agree with you on that point. Residential and hotel development should be near the top of priorities for downtown.

[Tacachale]

Reading the last few comments - maybe Jax just lacks a population who gives a crap about anything.  Self-defeat works every time.

I just think the "build it and they will come" mentality never works. Hotels (and total number of hotel rooms) should correlate to the health of downtown (and the wider city). Develop downtown and hotels will be built. As it is, there is close to nothing downtown. If Jax is experiencing a shortage of available hotel rooms downtown, then I would agree we need more. If not, I would say we need to do more to make downtown attractive to visitors.

They are already coming though.  They are just 'coming' someplace else.  Sitting around and waiting for something to happen isn't the answer.   If doing nothing worked downtown Jax would be thriving.  Attractions aren't going to locate downtown if there aren't people there.  People WILL go where the hotels are because...well...that is where the bed is.  No one is pulling off on Pecan Park road and sleeping in their car.  They are going to where the hotel is.

Yesterday you were arguing that we shouldn't have a convention center because it's a waste of resources, and now you're saying we should subsidize dozens of hotels.

People won't stay in a hotel Downtown vs. a hotel somewhere else unless they have a reason to be there. Jacksonville and the metro have a good (and growing) tourism industry, but by and large most of the attractions aren't downtown. If just building a bunch of hotels were the recipe for revitalization, every city would do that. They don't, as there are other uses of resources that would be much more impactful.

The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town.  Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them.  That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.

I agree with you on that point. Residential and hotel development should be near the top of priorities for downtown.

You're definitely right that we should do more to incentivize residential. The difference between that and hotels is that there's a demonstrated demand for residential - current housing is mostly full, and we're seeing new developments in and around Downtown like in Lavilla, Brooklyn, and the Southbank (and hopefully soon in San Marco) even without many incentives or coordination.

By way of comparison, hotel occupancy for all of Duval (including places like the Beaches which see a lot of the visitors) was 73.2 percent last year, and that was a big jump over 2015. We've only seen a handful of new hotels even proposed for Downtown. Maybe Downtown would benefit from some new hotels, but it's hardly the area of biggest need.

[Jim]

Kerry, how rooms had OKC added since 2000?  Number of hotels is irrelevant.  How many rooms?

For Jacksonville, The Adams Mark, now Hyatt, added 963 rooms by itself.

[Kerry]

The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town.  Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them.  That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.

I agree with you on that point. Residential and hotel development should be near the top of priorities for downtown.

Thank you - and hotels are such easy low hanging fruit it is almost criminal that the City doesn't do this.  They are being built and people will stay where they are built - they have to because that is where they are.

[Kerry]

Kerry, how rooms had OKC added since 2000?  Number of hotels is irrelevant.  How many rooms?

For Jacksonville, The Adams Mark, now Hyatt, added 963 rooms by itself.

I think this will answer some of your questions.  It is a little outdated because there are 4 hotels recently announced that aren't listed.  It has the hotel name, location, room count, etc...  To answer question directly, it is about 4,000 additional rooms.

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=34292&p=659682#post659682

Keep in mind, prior to 1999, OKC had 1 downtown hotel.

[Tacachale]

The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town.  Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them.  That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.

I agree with you on that point. Residential and hotel development should be near the top of priorities for downtown.

Thank you - and hotels are such easy low hanging fruit it is almost criminal that the City doesn't do this.  They are being built and people will stay where they are built - they have to because that is where they are.

I'm not seeing how this could be considered "low hanging fruit". It would require massive incentives and years of coordination to get 30 new hotels built.

[Kerry]

So don't start with 30 - start with 5 and let it snow ball.  OKC started with one, then two, then 5 and now almost 30, with developers still looking to build more.  Jax has a lot offer and downtown has a pretty awesome setting - we need to be capitalizing.  OKC did a lot of this with a crappy national economy, imagine what is going to happen with a resurging national economy.

Picture 5 new hotels along Riverside between 95 and the Acosta bridge.  It would transform the core.

[thelakelander]

There appear to be three or four active hotel proposals in the downtown area right now.  If there's a market for them, they'll materialize. If not, they all won't. For now, the Courtyard by Marriott in the Laura Trio seems to be the most imminent.  I'm not sure what COJ can do, outside of investing in public improvements (like convention center improvements, etc.) to strengthen the downtown market for such development.

Btw, speaking of OKC and hotels, you do realize that one of the many public improvements they've done is expand/modernize their convention center complex....which happens to be in the middle of downtown OKC. A good collection of them immediately surround that convention center complex...

https://goo.gl/maps/RWvg4FqxW8A2

https://goo.gl/maps/ZzRzseugSAy

[Jim]

Kerry, how rooms had OKC added since 2000?  Number of hotels is irrelevant.  How many rooms?

For Jacksonville, The Adams Mark, now Hyatt, added 963 rooms by itself.

I think this will answer some of your questions.  It is a little outdated because there are 4 hotels recently announced that aren't listed.  It has the hotel name, location, room count, etc...  To answer question directly, it is about 4,000 additional rooms.

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=34292&p=659682#post659682

Keep in mind, prior to 1999, OKC had 1 downtown hotel.

So, OKC has been catching up (and possibly surpassing at this point).  Prior to 1999, Jax had several hotels downtown so we haven't had a dearth of rooms (except 2005).

[Kerry]

There appear to be three or four active hotel proposals in the downtown area right now.  If there's a market for them, they'll materialize. If not, they all won't. For now, the Courtyard by Marriott in the Laura Trio seems to be the most imminent.  I'm not sure what COJ can do, outside of investing in public improvements (like convention center improvements, etc.) to strengthen the downtown market for such development.

Btw, speaking of OKC and hotels, you do realize that one of the many public improvements they've done is expand/modernize their convention center complex....which happens to be in the middle of downtown OKC. A good collection of them immediately surround that convention center complex...

https://goo.gl/maps/RWvg4FqxW8A2

https://goo.gl/maps/ZzRzseugSAy

I am very aware of what OKC has been doing - it is one of the reasons I live there part-time.  The convention center in OKC has almost nothing to do with their hotel development.  The new Convention Center didn't even get approval until a few years ago and won't be built for 3 more years.  In fact, the new CC site was selected to take advantage of the existing hotel stock.  The hotel development has been going on since 2000.

There is tons the City can do, but like I said, it isn't just OKC seeing downtown hotel development - it is happening in almost every city.  I was in downtown Memphis a few years ago and hotels were seemingly going up everywhere.  I stayed in a Marriott that didn't even have parking.  I had to park in a public garage 3 blocks away.

[Kerry]

You know, just once I would like to come on Metro Jacksonville and get a response of something other than, "That won't work in Jax because of X".  How about a little can-do spirit?  How about, "Hey, other cities are doing it maybe we can/should also."

[vicupstate]

In the last 20 years or so, OKC has spent hundreds of millions on public improvements like gardens, parks, public facilities, etc. almost exclusively in DT. They enacted a BJP like program, three times over.   When you invest that kind of public money, private money will follow, and it has.

Hotels are absolutely indicative of economic vitality, and they WILL come to DT if there is a good and or unique environment there.  That hasn't happened in DT JAX yet, so the apartments and hotels go elsewhere.       

[Tacachale]

There appear to be three or four active hotel proposals in the downtown area right now.  If there's a market for them, they'll materialize. If not, they all won't. For now, the Courtyard by Marriott in the Laura Trio seems to be the most imminent.  I'm not sure what COJ can do, outside of investing in public improvements (like convention center improvements, etc.) to strengthen the downtown market for such development.

Btw, speaking of OKC and hotels, you do realize that one of the many public improvements they've done is expand/modernize their convention center complex....which happens to be in the middle of downtown OKC. A good collection of them immediately surround that convention center complex...

https://goo.gl/maps/RWvg4FqxW8A2

https://goo.gl/maps/ZzRzseugSAy

I am very aware of what OKC has been doing - it is one of the reasons I live there part-time.  The convention center in OKC has almost nothing to do with their hotel development.  The new Convention Center didn't even get approval until a few years ago and won't be built for 3 more years.  In fact, the new CC site was selected to take advantage of the existing hotel stock.  The hotel development has been going on since 2000.

There is tons the City can do, but like I said, it isn't just OKC seeing downtown hotel development - it is happening in almost every city.  I was in downtown Memphis a few years ago and hotels were seemingly going up everywhere.  I stayed in a Marriott that didn't even have parking.  I had to park in a public garage 3 blocks away.

OKC also has a current convention center they've pumped tens of millions into over the years. That is presumably a major factor in the growth of hotels over the years.

You know, just once I would like to come on Metro Jacksonville and get a response of something other than, "That won't work in Jax because of X".  How about a little can-do spirit?  How about, "Hey, other cities are doing it maybe we can/should also."

Because cities aren't actually doing what you seem to be suggesting. There's no way to just make developers build a bunch of hotels downtown. And giving them considerable incentives to build them doesn't seem like a wise use of resources compared to, say, incentivizing residential (since there's demonstrable demand for that), advancing public transit and connectivity, or rehabbing existing buildings. No one is criticizing the need to do more for DT Jax or do better with incentives.

[thelakelander]

There appear to be three or four active hotel proposals in the downtown area right now.  If there's a market for them, they'll materialize. If not, they all won't. For now, the Courtyard by Marriott in the Laura Trio seems to be the most imminent.  I'm not sure what COJ can do, outside of investing in public improvements (like convention center improvements, etc.) to strengthen the downtown market for such development.

Btw, speaking of OKC and hotels, you do realize that one of the many public improvements they've done is expand/modernize their convention center complex....which happens to be in the middle of downtown OKC. A good collection of them immediately surround that convention center complex...

https://goo.gl/maps/RWvg4FqxW8A2

https://goo.gl/maps/ZzRzseugSAy

I am very aware of what OKC has been doing - it is one of the reasons I live there part-time.  The convention center in OKC has almost nothing to do with their hotel development.  The new Convention Center didn't even get approval until a few years ago and won't be built for 3 more years.  In fact, the new CC site was selected to take advantage of the existing hotel stock.  The hotel development has been going on since 2000.

I was referring to about the existing one. It was expanded in the late 1990s/early 2000s. Two major hotels (Renaissance OKC and Courtyard by Marriott) that are connected to it, were built following the expansion.