JTA's JRTC Design Showcase

[finehoe]

Pretty fancy for a glorified Greyhound station.

[hiddentrack]

As for green-space; downtown JAX already has too much green space and I wouldn't mind if every proposal dropped it from the their plans.  We can worry about a central park type open space when we have some semblance of density.

It's difficult to add in green space and park space at the end after you've built up your city. It has to be a part of redevelopment plans from the start. It's one of the things I appreciated so much about Pond's proposal.

Many small areas of green space will have a larger impact than one large space because they will be directly accessible to more people on a daily basis. That's important because access to green space is actually important for an individual's health. That becomes more important as we'll start to have more downtown residents who might not have access to a larger park area or a backyard of their own in which to play or relax.

[UNFurbanist]

^ Very true! The green space is good. And it's not like they are taking up an entire block or anything. Where is the new "Lift E'vry voice and sing park" in relation to this?

[exnewsman]

The public presentation portion is now open. People starting to arrive. Presentations begin at 4:45 p.m. All three presentations on a loop. VIA Concepts up first. Then KBJ, followed by Pond.

121 W. Forsyth St. #200

[Tacachale]

I sent an email with my two cents and got a prompt reply. I've got to say, JTA is handling this project very well. Hopefully we get something good out of it.

[TheCat]

From an anonymous, possibly biased, attendee of today's presentations:

Via Concepts/one presenter:

The first was presented by a guy who was fun, but not very serious and repeated himself a lot. The focus was not on the city but on building in a less desirable area.

KBJ/ one presenter:

The second presenter is a Jacksonville native. He owned the fact that they are established, old boys, who can do what the city needs. Experienced in a lot of design/builds. But he touched his nose a lot and rushed through too quickly.

Pond-Michael Baker/ five presenters:

The third, had the most extensive and professional presentation. Their's was not as smooth as the previous two but they had the most work, best thinking and best designs.

The third group showed they were a partnership and that they had extensive relationships to bring everything together

[Kerry]

I thought it was kind of coincidental that the second proposal looked like an airport and that KBJ does lots of airport work.  It is my impression that Via is a little out of date in their thinking that safety (their top priority) is achieved by separating all uses and creating yet an other one-way street so as to speed-up the bus.  Also, if I hear the word 'iconic' one more time it will end in a CNN moment.

Pond-MB was the only group that discussed pedestrians and sidewalk interaction.

[CCMjax]

I'm kind of surprised KBJ had only one presenter.  Was it Tom Rensing?  Is there a recording of the presentations anywhere?

[avonjax]

Via=terrible....
Same bland architecture Jacksonville has been erecting for years.
I'm sure since it may be the cheapest it will be the one our forward thinking city will select.
I think it's TERRIBLE!!!

[tufsu1]

Pond-Michael Baker/ five presenters:

The third, had the most extensive and professional presentation. Their's was not as smooth as the previous two but they had the most work, best thinking and best designs.

the problem is their design is estimated to cost $47 to $53 million....and JTA's request was for the center to cost said no more than $40 million!

[KatieV080]

Dear MJ,
A few things
1) OnFlorida and spending
     As a born and raised Floridian, I have seen quite a few urban planning projects that are great ideas, but are they going to be used?  Of the people who are reading, have read, will read, how many will actually use this terminal?

     Possibly more importantly, why are so many in favor of a design, the estimate for which is already $12mm over budget - that is before the first brick is laid. Think of all of the other improvements that Jac could make with that $12mm or not in debt the city could be.

2) on public transport in FL
    What is the ridership of the light rail? The possibility of extension is great! But not when you pick an idea in a state with no state or local income tax to pay for it and go $12mm over budget on design. This is already a decade behind - it's taken that long to get the $40mm cleared - at that rate it will take another 3.25 years to pay off the excess 12mm for the front runner in design before the city can start to save for light rail extensions.

Too many people drive for it too be widely used

3) final thoughts - someone did sum up thoughts rather well, it's a glorified greyhound station, and JTA offices. A location that frees up space in downtown for development is a good idea, especially if the convention center doesn't move. Offices for public amenities like the rental car offices make sense, most people in Florida drive and need access to cars.

I don't understand why a cash-strapped city isnt focusing more on feasibility, adaptability and what makes economic sense.

[thelakelander]

For comparison's sake, the mid-2000s JRTC plan:

[thelakelander]

Dear MJ,
A few things
1) OnFlorida and spending
     As a born and raised Floridian, I have seen quite a few urban planning projects that are great ideas, but are they going to be used?  Of the people who are reading, have read, will read, how many will actually use this terminal?

I'm a born and raised Floridian as well. Assuming I'm still working downtown, I'd be a potential user of this facility in some sort of fashion. I currently use the skyway more than the average Jax resident because there's a station directly across the street from my office. During the day, depending on where I need to go downtown, there are trips where it's easier and more convenient for me than taking my truck out of the garage a few blocks away and driving.

Possibly more importantly, why are so many in favor of a design, the estimate for which is already $12mm over budget - that is before the first brick is laid. Think of all of the other improvements that Jac could make with that $12mm or not in debt the city could be.

To be honest, I probably prefer the KBJ design (architecturally) more than Pond's. However, what I really like about Pond design is how it possibly integrates with the surrounding area at the pedestrian level. With that side, since Pond's covers more land than KBJ's, perhaps KBJ's can be modified to be more interative at ground level? Also, I don't believe the city would be paying for this. From what I understand, JTA is fronting this bill.

2) on public transport in FL
    What is the ridership of the light rail? The possibility of extension is great!

We don't have light rail but I assume you're taking about the Skyway?  I believe it averages around 5,000 riders a day, which is actually impressive for something that's only 2.5 miles in length, that operates in a downtown that still struggles in generating everyday urban vitality and vibrancy. With that said, the suggested Brooklyn loop extension makes no sense.

But not when you pick an idea in a state with no state or local income tax to pay for it and go $12mm over budget on design.

I'm in an agreement that the cost should stay below $40 million. I'd like to see what the Pond design would look like at that number. The proposals would be easier to compare apples-to-apples. For example, I doesn't appear that the elevated public park shown in the graphics is included in the cost estimates. The plan would look radically different if that were replaced with the vacant dirt lot that sits there today.

This is already a decade behind - it's taken that long to get the $40mm cleared - at that rate it will take another 3.25 years to pay off the excess 12mm for the front runner in design before the city can start to save for light rail extensions.

In the event the Skyway is extended, money would have to come from a separate pot of money. How that's actually funded could be anyone's guess at this point. It could be public-private, the creation of a transit district, mobility fee funds, federal, state dollars, a tax increase, grants or a mix of all. At this point, it's too early in the game since there's no real plan on the table for extension.

Too many people drive for it too be widely used

I don't agree with this. It will be used by those who live in areas where it is designed to serve. How many people driving on the streets is less of a concern than having supportive land use and zoning policies in place that increase density within walking distance of transit spines.

3) final thoughts - someone did sum up thoughts rather well, it's a glorified greyhound station, and JTA offices. A location that frees up space in downtown for development is a good idea, especially if the convention center doesn't move. Offices for public amenities like the rental car offices make sense, most people in Florida drive and need access to cars.

I don't understand why a cash-strapped city isnt focusing more on feasibility, adaptability and what makes economic sense.

From my understanding, COJ isn't focusing on anything but the pension referendum this August. This is JTA's baby. With that said, after following this for over a decade now, it appears they are focusing on feasibility, adaptability and what makes economic sense.  The old plan had a $150 million price tag and swallowed half of LaVilla. Out of these three proposals, the most expensive one is still 1/3rd the cost of the original JRTC plan.

[spuwho]

Dear MJ,
A few things
1) OnFlorida and spending
     As a born and raised Floridian, I have seen quite a few urban planning projects that are great ideas, but are they going to be used?  Of the people who are reading, have read, will read, how many will actually use this terminal?

     Possibly more importantly, why are so many in favor of a design, the estimate for which is already $12mm over budget - that is before the first brick is laid. Think of all of the other improvements that Jac could make with that $12mm or not in debt the city could be.

2) on public transport in FL
    What is the ridership of the light rail? The possibility of extension is great! But not when you pick an idea in a state with no state or local income tax to pay for it and go $12mm over budget on design. This is already a decade behind - it's taken that long to get the $40mm cleared - at that rate it will take another 3.25 years to pay off the excess 12mm for the front runner in design before the city can start to save for light rail extensions.

Too many people drive for it too be widely used

3) final thoughts - someone did sum up thoughts rather well, it's a glorified greyhound station, and JTA offices. A location that frees up space in downtown for development is a good idea, especially if the convention center doesn't move. Offices for public amenities like the rental car offices make sense, most people in Florida drive and need access to cars.

I don't understand why a cash-strapped city isnt focusing more on feasibility, adaptability and what makes economic sense.

Hi Katie,

Welcome to MJ!

The idea of this plan is to consolidate several transportation forms into a single stop for patrons. Looking long term, you would be able to ride Amtrak, take a Skyway car, grab a bus (local, Greyhound or Megabus, rent a car, bike or electric assist (like a segway) or just catch a cab. If an Airport express comes to fruition, it could stop here.

All projects are negotiable. The prices you see here are estimates based on past projects and per square foot historicals. JTA can always place caps on the contract amount which doesn't allow the contractor to go over budget by a certain amount.

Most of this is being funded through various sources, not just local taxes. Mostly Federal funding and grants.

While I agree with you on the strategic planning one must do to stay in tune with the needs of the public, you still have to anticipate the needs of the future in what you design.  People say Jacksonville is terrible at transit because there is no way to connect all of the ways to travel.  Now, here we are, with a way to "bring it all together" finally.

Even a cash strapped city has to be prepared, that is done through ongoing planning. You will find many people here who believe Jacksonville has been overwhelming in paying for plans, but very deficient in following through.

Jacksonville is not as bankrupt as it appears, but it is not as wealthy as people think. Unfortunately we come up with a lot of plans that are too big for our britches and we can't perform anything incrementally, because our city fathers always want to disrupt long terms plans for short term expediency, especially if a developer lands on the door.

So your points are well taken.  I don't think we are going to spend $12M more than we should. But it gives an indication of what is possible with our hard earned dollars.

[Treeboy]

I first want to give JTA credit for going to great lengths to include the public in this process.  All too often in Jacksonville we have seen projects move forward and it is obvious they did not take into account how the local user would interact with that project.   I.e. The courthouse(pretty sure KBJ designed) and public library.   These so called iconic buildings totally disregard the pedestrian and how they will feel along the building edge.  Of the three concepts it appears Pond Michael Baker really focused on creating an experience like no other in Jacksonville.  The other concepts seem stark and have no life to them. 

As far as the budgets.  Isn't it a little early to be getting estimates.  These are all pretty close in range and is anyone doing a reality check on what was submitted?   I would again say at least the Pond Michael Baker team gave the JTA and quite honestly the City a project we could all get behind.  I'm sure as they move forward they could get a good portion of this included, potentially other players would step up to assist. 

Of all I feel that the public engagement of their design is the best.  Not just another stark building placed in Jacksonville.