Life on the fringes of U.S. suburbia becomes untenable with rising gas costs

[zoo]

BTW, this article was front page of the New York Times on Wed, June 25 (reach is good!)

Below is my favorite part:

"More than three-fourths of prospective homebuyers are more inclined to live in an urban area because of fuel prices, according to a recent survey of 903 real estate agents with Coldwell Banker, a national brokerage.

Some proclaim the unfolding demise of suburbia.

"Many low-density suburbs and McMansion subdivisions, including some that are lovely and affluent today, may become what inner cities became in the 1960s and '70s - slums characterized by poverty, crime and decay," said Christopher Leinberger, an urban land use expert, in a recent essay in the Atlantic Monthly.

Most experts do not share such apocalyptic visions, seeing instead a gradual reordering.

"It's like an ebbing of this suburban tide," said Joe Cortright, an economist at the consulting group Impresa in Portland, Oregon. "There's going to be this kind of reversal of desirability. Typically, Americans have felt the periphery was most desirable, and now there's going to be a reversion to the center."

And, adamh0903, you are mistaken. I'd like to ask you, and all of the other sheltered-by-my-lack-of-exposure suburbanites in Jacksonville, to stop making assumptions that you know what living in a city neighborhood is like.

The things you describe as idyllic  in your post are also true of Springfield and Riverside living. Except the 10 acres part -- but add to that no commuting to work, walkability to daily needs and services, and re-use of existing infrastructure instead of building more roads, more schools, and more retail to support it all, and  I guess that  makes downtown neighborhoods environmentally conscious in comparison. My family and I need 10 acres like we need a 6 bedroom, 6 bath house with a 4-car garage (we don't).

Many of my  neighbors DID NOT know their neighbors when they previously resided in the suburbs (I know of  two that lived a few houses apart off San Jose for years, and never knew each other until they moved to Springfield). Most city dwellers also don't like homogenous environments -- most suburban neighborhoods, and their Agrestic-like sameness ("Weeds" reference), bore us city types to tears. Here are some shocking things I've heard from different suburbanites in Jax recently  (names changed):

- "I can't believe 'Christie and Alex' are only going to have one child! Having one kid is just wrong because only children are so lonely. They should have more so ALL of our kids can play together."

- "My daughter has a black girl in her class who had a birthday party this weekend. My daughter really likes "Mia" so I took her. We were the only white people there, but we talked to everyone else  and made an effort to enjoy  the party like everyone else."

-  And one from adamh's post: "for their kids to be able to ride their bikes up and down the road and not worry so much about them." (this shows suburbanites have an alarmingly naive sense of safety -- it's even more naive to think the pedophiles out there don't know it!)

Adamh, I have tried not present this as an attack, because surburbanites have just as much right to choose their lifestyle as I do. But suburbanites need to stop assuming their choice is "better". It's just different. I'm merely trying to be eye-opening, as your uninformed stance is a roadblock to progress.

Would love to chat more about it. Please join me and my neighbors at our community throwback baseball game at Klutho Park on July 3 at 4 p.m. The Mayberry-esque activities will continue into the eve for fireworks, and at the park the following day, as well. Bring a chair and someone to play catch with. Hope to see you there.

[BridgeTroll]

Jacksonville's difficulty revolves mainly around leadership.  If city leaders valued the subject a little more, there would have been a significant amount of investment already.

Metro Denver is roughly double the size of Metro Jacksonville.  I'd do back flips if Jacksonville found a way to invest $3 billion (half of what Denver is investing) in rail.  Heck, I wouldn't complain if we found a way to invest a $1 billion in rail.

Anyway, to eliminate all excuses for Jax's lack of investment in rail, we can replace Denver's name with a host of other cities that are either around the same size, smaller or less dense then Jacksonville.  Charlotte, Salt Lake City, Norfolk, Albuquerque, Austin, Little Rock and Nashville are a few places that immediately come to mind.

I would support a light rail system coupled with the bus and skyway but where do you propose Jax gets 3 billion?

[thelakelander]

Jax won't be getting $3 billion from anyone overnight.  However, neither did Denver or any of the other cities that started off with "starter" lines first.  Imo, Jax's best bet is to complete a mass transit master plan, then select an affordable, attractive corridor to move forward on first to serve as a "no-frills" starter line.  By "starter" , I mean a single rail-based transit line that will most likely be less than 15 miles long in length, connecting to major destination endpoints together.

I believe this can be done in the price range of $100 million.  As long as JTA does not blow the $100 million set aside in BJP funds on BRT ROW without completing the rail studies first, we may already have enough money to get something worthwhile started.  Toss in the idea of public/private partnerships/financing and that $100 million may stretch a little further.  When it comes to federal funding, use the initial starter line's value as the city's funding match to get federal dollars in the future.  Those dollars can be used to expand the initial starter line.  With this method we can move forward in the short term, instead of waiting decades for federal approval before doing anything.

[adamh0903]

BTW, this article was front page of the New York Times on Wed, June 25 (reach is good!)

Below is my favorite part:

"More than three-fourths of prospective homebuyers are more inclined to live in an urban area because of fuel prices, according to a recent survey of 903 real estate agents with Coldwell Banker, a national brokerage.

Some proclaim the unfolding demise of suburbia.

"Many low-density suburbs and McMansion subdivisions, including some that are lovely and affluent today, may become what inner cities became in the 1960s and '70s - slums characterized by poverty, crime and decay," said Christopher Leinberger, an urban land use expert, in a recent essay in the Atlantic Monthly.

Most experts do not share such apocalyptic visions, seeing instead a gradual reordering.

"It's like an ebbing of this suburban tide," said Joe Cortright, an economist at the consulting group Impresa in Portland, Oregon. "There's going to be this kind of reversal of desirability. Typically, Americans have felt the periphery was most desirable, and now there's going to be a reversion to the center."

And, adamh0903, you are mistaken. I'd like to ask you, and all of the other sheltered-by-my-lack-of-exposure suburbanites in Jacksonville, to stop making assumptions that you know what living in a city neighborhood is like.

The things you describe as idyllic  in your post are also true of Springfield and Riverside living. Except the 10 acres part -- but add to that no commuting to work, walkability to daily needs and services, and re-use of existing infrastructure instead of building more roads, more schools, and more retail to support it all, and  I guess that  makes downtown neighborhoods environmentally conscious in comparison. My family and I need 10 acres like we need a 6 bedroom, 6 bath house with a 4-car garage (we don't).

Many of my  neighbors DID NOT know their neighbors when they previously resided in the suburbs (I know of  two that lived a few houses apart off San Jose for years, and never knew each other until they moved to Springfield). Most city dwellers also don't like homogenous environments -- most suburban neighborhoods, and their Agrestic-like sameness ("Weeds" reference), bore us city types to tears. Here are some shocking things I've heard from different suburbanites in Jax recently  (names changed):

- "I can't believe 'Christie and Alex' are only going to have one child! Having one kid is just wrong because only children are so lonely. They should have more so ALL of our kids can play together."

- "My daughter has a black girl in her class who had a birthday party this weekend. My daughter really likes "Mia" so I took her. We were the only white people there, but we talked to everyone else  and made an effort to enjoy  the party like everyone else."

-  And one from adamh's post: "for their kids to be able to ride their bikes up and down the road and not worry so much about them." (this shows suburbanites have an alarmingly naive sense of safety -- it's even more naive to think the pedophiles out there don't know it!)

Adamh, I have tried not present this as an attack, because surburbanites have just as much right to choose their lifestyle as I do. But suburbanites need to stop assuming their choice is "better". It's just different. I'm merely trying to be eye-opening, as your uninformed stance is a roadblock to progress.

Would love to chat more about it. Please join me and my neighbors at our community throwback baseball game at Klutho Park on July 3 at 4 p.m. The Mayberry-esque activities will continue into the eve for fireworks, and at the park the following day, as well. Bring a chair and someone to play catch with. Hope to see you there.

The things you describe as idyllic  in your post are also true of Springfield and Riverside living.
      Sure, signed random shootings in Springfield

My family and I need 10 acres like we need a 6 bedroom, 6 bath house with a 4-car garage (we don't).

You may not, but apparently a lot of people do

Hey I am not knocking city living, my wife and I looked at houses in Springfield, and Berkman Plaza and The Carling. And we both wanted to move there, but then we found out we were having a baby, and something changed, I guess because I have lived out here all my life, but I want my child to grow up out here, not in the city.

I do not see myself as a “roadblock to progress” but rather a voice from the other side, hey I love Jacksonville, that’s why I’m here, and that’s why I found this site.

And, adamh0903, you are mistaken. I'd like to ask you, and all of the other sheltered-by-my-lack-of-exposure suburbanites in Jacksonville, to stop making assumptions that you know what living in a city neighborhood are like

Sometimes perception is reality..

This is perception of city living.. Turn on the news tonight…. it will start like this

   â€œWe will get to the tonight’s top story in a moment, but first breaking news out of the northwest side of Jacksonville, where 2 people where found shot”

Every single night….

[BridgeTroll]

Jax won't be getting $3 billion from anyone overnight.  However, neither did Denver or any of the other cities that started off with "starter" lines first.  Imo, Jax's best bet is to complete a mass transit master plan, then select an affordable, attractive corridor to move forward on first to serve as a "no-frills" starter line.  By "starter" , I mean a single rail-based transit line that will most likely be less than 15 miles long in length, connecting to major destination endpoints together.

I believe this can be done in the price range of $100 million.  As long as JTA does not blow the $100 million set aside in BJP funds on BRT ROW without completing the rail studies first, we may already have enough money to get something worthwhile started.  Toss in the idea of public/private partnerships/financing and that $100 million may stretch a little further.  When it comes to federal funding, use the initial starter line's value as the city's funding match to get federal dollars in the future.  Those dollars can be used to expand the initial starter line.  With this method we can move forward in the short term, instead of waiting decades for federal approval before doing anything.

I was unaware of the 100 mil set aside.  I surely do not know how much it costs to physically lay the rails and purchase a train.  Seems to me the selected corridor would have to be already owned by the city or state.

[thelakelander]

I was unaware of the 100 mil set aside.  I surely do not know how much it costs to physically lay the rails and purchase a train.  Seems to me the selected corridor would have to be already owned by the city or state.

It all depends.  Nashville was able to construct a 32 mile long system for $40 million, using a lightly used existing freight rail line and used trains they purchased for $1 a piece from Chicago.  Austin's Capital Metrorail cost them $123 million for a 31 mile line and Ottawa started a 5 mile long commuter rail demostration line for $21 million a few years ago.  All of these are examples of "no-frills" lines.  They all are single track lines with occassional passing sidings and simple plain jane stations.


Nashville's master plan calls for a series of commuter rail lines tying that city's downtown with its suburbs.  With this plan in mind, the city spent $40 million moving forward with the 32 mile long line between Downtown Nashville and Lebanon.


Nashville's line uses simple stations.  Instead of having restroom facilities, air conditioned space, elevators to carry passengers over track (like in Miami), the platforms are at-grade with small shelters to keep costs down.



Nashville's trains were purchased from a commuter rail system in Chicago.  They cost $1 a piece.

With the CSX A Line possibly having extra capacity due to the Orlando commuter rail deal, CSX's JaxPort Springfield bypass and the city's S-Line, we have just as many, if not more, major chips to play with as many of these other communities.  If rail based transit became a priority, there's no reason we could not get a no-frills starter line up and running, without having to raise taxes or kiss up to the FTA.

[BridgeTroll]

I believe it was a different thread but oklawaha had mentioned the problems Amtrack has with ontime issues when having to share lines with freight lines.  I assume the lines you are proposing are unused or little used lines that could be obtained cheaply...

[thelakelander]

Correct.

[AndyB]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those people always in the 1st. row of pews at FBC?

What is your point and what does this have to do with transportation?

[gatorback]

FBC runs this town.  They have since the '20s.  My question is what will the new board do to support transportation in jacksonville if they are the same old same old that got us into this mess in the first place.

[Eazy E]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those people always in the 1st. row of pews at FBC?

What is your point and what does this have to do with transportation?

My point is that if you believe the drivel coming out of this place, you'll never be forward thinking enough to solve our transportation problems-- you'll be too concerned with Folio weekly articles on what people choose to do in their own homes on their own time (you know, the important stuff).

[gatorback]

The important stuff for who?  The FBC and their members, or the the community as a whole?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those people always in the 1st. row of pews at FBC?

What is your point and what does this have to do with transportation?

My point is that if you believe the drivel coming out of this place, you'll never be forward thinking enough to solve our transportation problems-- you'll be too concerned with Folio weekly articles on what people choose to do in their own homes on their own time (you know, the important stuff).

[zoo]

Sometimes perception is reality..

This is perception of city living.. Turn on the news tonight…. it will start like this

   â€œWe will get to the tonight’s top story in a moment, but first breaking news out of the northwest side of Jacksonville, where 2 people where found shot”

Actually, Adamh, this is what tonight's news will say:

JACKSONVILLE, FL -- Police are investigating after workers find a human skull on the Southside.

JSO confirmed that a bag of bones found at 1755 Leon Road, near Atlantic Boulevard did indeed include a human skull. A construction crew alerted police after finding the bag.

"I picked up the bag and what looked like the upper part of a skeleton fell out," said Jeff Osborne, who, along with his workmates, made the discovery.

The remains were taken from the scene for testing, to see if they can determine who it might have belonged to. JSO says the skull appeared to belong to adult, but they could not say yet whether it was a male or female.
©2008 First Coast News. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, rewritten, or redistributed.

...and...

JACKSONVILLE, FL -- The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office is investigating an early morning shooting.

Police tell First Coast News a man was found shot to death on the 2500 block of Stratton Road.

A woman called 911 around 2:30 Friday morning.

When police arrived on the scene they found the man inside a trailer.

The victim's name has not been released.

There are no suspects in custody.

If you have any information that can help police call our partner First Coast Crime Stoppers at 1-866-845-TIPS. It is an anonymous call and you may be eligible for a cash reward of up to $1,000.
©2008 First Coast News. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, rewritten, or redistributed.

That second one was on the West side. Gosh, I hope no one on the Southside or Westside has kids! Kids or no, everyone living there is in great danger!

There are problems on the Northwest side of Jax. But let's be clearer than our local news media and suburbanites can be... Jacksonville's downtown neighborhoods, Riverside, Springfield, and even San Marco are not Northwest Jacksonville. And in case you don't follow our local media (I'd like more real news reporting than Jax gets), crime is up ALL OVER Jacksonville. Last week an air conditioning service man was attacked on the Southside, and a week or two before that, a teenage girl was raped in Neptune Beach. Like I said earlier, suburbanites have an alarmingly naive sense of safety.

And to your comment about house size, there is a great difference between "need" and "want". And you'd be correct if you said many people "want" a 6 br, 6ba house.

Hope to see you, and your family, at Klutho on Friday. Maybe you'll learn something.

[gatorback]

Deerwood, Ponte Vedra, Epping, all those gated communities have problems as well so don't think living behind bars solves your problems either.

[RiversideGator]

FBC runs this town.  They have since the '20s.  My question is what will the new board do to support transportation in jacksonville if they are the same old same old that got us into this mess in the first place.

Then why is it that Ginger Soud (FBC member) is not our Mayor?  Instead, we got little man Peyton.  Frankly, I would have preferred Soud.

This whole FBC bugaboo really is getting tired.  I hardly think a church with 30,000 (my estimate) members could control a city of 800,000+.