Roost Cafe and Coffee shop trying to open on Oak St?

[Steve]

^YES, and the difference is ASTRONOMICAL in price. One is a 4COP and one is a SRX but I never remember which is which.

A Restaraunt that has 150 seats (or 100 Downtown, part of 5 Points, and in the Commercial Character Areas of Riverside/Avondale) and has 51% of their revenue from food can get a different license. This license is about $3k/year.

The "bar" license is hundreds of thousands of dollars up front. So, it makes a difference-that's why they want 150 seats-Oak Street is not a commercial character area.

[Steve]

It looks like that site and the back lot can be reworked to include far more than the 41 parking spots the article mentions.  Snap fitness and the laundromat don't need more than 8 spaces at any given time.  I don't think a restaurant is the highest and best use for that site, but reduce the seat count to 100 and let's get this moving.

The whole issue, in all these disputes revolves around the sale of the Duval Daemon Alcohol...  They can't get a SRX license at that spot for 100 seats, need 150.  They can't make money without alcohol sales...

Simple solution would be to eliminate the 150 seat requirement everywhere.. not just specially RAP chosen zones.

They aren't RAP chosen-they match the city's zoning in the neighborhood.

[Sentient]

It looks like that site and the back lot can be reworked to include far more than the 41 parking spots the article mentions.  Snap fitness and the laundromat don't need more than 8 spaces at any given time.  I don't think a restaurant is the highest and best use for that site, but reduce the seat count to 100 and let's get this moving.

The whole issue, in all these disputes revolves around the sale of the Duval Daemon Alcohol...  They can't get a SRX license at that spot for 100 seats, need 150.  They can't make money without alcohol sales...

Simple solution would be to eliminate the 150 seat requirement everywhere.. not just specially RAP chosen zones.

They aren't RAP chosen-they match the city's zoning in the neighborhood.

I believe it does not match one for one.

[dp8541]

Just for my personal knowledge, are there two types of liquor licenses available?  I always hear about the issue with restaurants needing 150 seats to qualify to purchase the license.  Is there a separate type of license that bar only establishments can obtain (like Rogue or Loft on King St, or Sidecar in San marco for example).

Yes a COP 4 license, which is what true bars and liquor stores have.  Which are limited artificially by population, hence there is a monopoly in effect, they trade hands for in excess of $300k when they are available.  similar to taxi medallions in rationing.  SRX is an accommodation to restaurants, but you have square footage (2,500) and minimum seating requirements (150) and must have total revenues equal 51% food sales and 49% beverage sales.  The J Bill introduced after the secret Biscotti's licensing attempt reduces these to 100 seats but only in a few designated areas in 5 points, Avondale etc.  Not this strip.

Thanks!

[Sentient]

Just for my personal knowledge, are there two types of liquor licenses available?  I always hear about the issue with restaurants needing 150 seats to qualify to purchase the license.  Is there a separate type of license that bar only establishments can obtain (like Rogue or Loft on King St, or Sidecar in San marco for example).

Yes a COP 4 license, which is what true bars and liquor stores have.  Which are limited artificially by population, hence there is a monopoly in effect, they trade hands for in excess of $300k when they are available.  similar to taxi medallions in rationing.  SRX is an accommodation to restaurants, but you have square footage (2,500) and minimum seating requirements (150) and must have total revenues equal 51% food sales and 49% beverage sales.  The J Bill introduced after the secret Biscotti's licensing attempt reduces these to 100 seats but only in a few designated areas in 5 points, Avondale etc.  Not this strip.

Thanks!

This strip is eligible for an exception allowing a 60 seat restaurant.  In NY, Chicago, LA, Boston, San Francisco etc... there are hundreds of sub 60 seat restaurants...  A 60 seater could make money in that spot WITH alchohol sales.

But Jax hates alcohol sales... so they create massive disincentives for people to come in and start businesses while reusing existing spaces... forcing gigantic renovations, knock downs, new structures instead.  which increases capital costs and return rate requirements and risk...

When was the last time you were in Mello or Mojo at 10PM and couldn't get a seat?  Large empty spaces...

[Sentient]

So what happened at the council hearing?

[Steve]

It looks like that site and the back lot can be reworked to include far more than the 41 parking spots the article mentions.  Snap fitness and the laundromat don't need more than 8 spaces at any given time.  I don't think a restaurant is the highest and best use for that site, but reduce the seat count to 100 and let's get this moving.

The whole issue, in all these disputes revolves around the sale of the Duval Daemon Alcohol...  They can't get a SRX license at that spot for 100 seats, need 150.  They can't make money without alcohol sales...

Simple solution would be to eliminate the 150 seat requirement everywhere.. not just specially RAP chosen zones.

They aren't RAP chosen-they match the city's zoning in the neighborhood.

I believe it does not match one for one.

It does. The J-Bill specifically passed by Council that went to the State matched it identically. That was the intent.

The J-Bill was written before the concept of Roost even was announced.

[Steve]

Just for my personal knowledge, are there two types of liquor licenses available?  I always hear about the issue with restaurants needing 150 seats to qualify to purchase the license.  Is there a separate type of license that bar only establishments can obtain (like Rogue or Loft on King St, or Sidecar in San marco for example).

Yes a COP 4 license, which is what true bars and liquor stores have.  Which are limited artificially by population, hence there is a monopoly in effect, they trade hands for in excess of $300k when they are available.  similar to taxi medallions in rationing.  SRX is an accommodation to restaurants, but you have square footage (2,500) and minimum seating requirements (150) and must have total revenues equal 51% food sales and 49% beverage sales.  The J Bill introduced after the secret Biscotti's licensing attempt reduces these to 100 seats but only in a few designated areas in 5 points, Avondale etc.  Not this strip.

Thanks!

This strip is eligible for an exception allowing a 60 seat restaurant.  In NY, Chicago, LA, Boston, San Francisco etc... there are hundreds of sub 60 seat restaurants...  A 60 seater could make money in that spot WITH alchohol sales.

But Jax hates alcohol sales... so they create massive disincentives for people to come in and start businesses while reusing existing spaces... forcing gigantic renovations, knock downs, new structures instead.  which increases capital costs and return rate requirements and risk...

When was the last time you were in Mello or Mojo at 10PM and couldn't get a seat?  Large empty spaces...

To be clear for people on the forum (though if you know 4COP and SRX you are probably aware), it's spirits. Beer and wine does not have the 150 seat rule.

Putting that aside, I don't disagree. The whole state law is written around Restaraunt's the size of a typically Applebee's or Chili's, not for independent Restaraunts. Personally, I'd be fine with getting rid of the 150 or 100 seat rule and retaining the 51% rule.

[dp8541]

One follow up question - is a restaurant required to use only the SFX license, or would a restaurant which did not meet the minimum seat or square footage requirement have the option to purchase an existing 4COP (if they could find and afford one)?

[dp8541]

So then yes?  For example, any zoning issues aside, would a 90 seat restaurant/bar be permitted to purchase and operate under a 4COP license?

[Know Growth]

There were WAY more than a dozen people at the protest, but the reporter chose only to count the ones directly in front of Deluxe and Snap.  An honest editing error or an effort to diminish the number of people opposed to the project?

No matter. The only 'ones' that matters are those with 'standing' and propensity, financial resources to defend against ungainly,inappropriate land use & rezone request.
And that's all it is,a re-zone request placed at the feet of the public's government.No guarantee or assumed "right" can be assumed on the Applicants' part other than the right to submit Request.

Same attorney for Applicant as Mellow Mushroom,St. Johns Village might be more interesting subject heading. No matter what.

[JaxAvondale]

The zoning committee approved the application for the PUD.

[jaxlore]

http://jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=547534



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City Council member Jim Love
Zoning committee approves The Roost; full council next step for controversial Riverside restaurant
Tuesday, May 10, 11:12 AM EDT
By David Chapman, Staff Writer

The Roost is still cooking.
After 14 hours of debate, examinations, cross-examinations and other practices found in a courtroom, the City Council Land Use and Zoning Committee by a 5-2 vote Monday approved a zoning change for the planned Riverside restaurant.

Developers Tim Stein and J.C. Demetree plan to convert the former Deluxe Laundry and Dry Cleaners and De Luxe Launderette sites on Oak Street into a 150-seat diner and coffee bar that sells alcohol.

Doing so requires the zoning change in the historic residential area, which has been opposed by some residents.

Some have been willing to back a scaled-down restaurant that seats 60, but the developers are set on 150 — the amount needed to have a liquor license for the restaurant.

While those negotiations went nowhere, there was some compromise Monday.

The Roost sought outdoor service for its dinner crowds but agreed to limit outdoor hours to 5 p.m. The change would help potential noise concerns for neighbors.

While the majority of committee members ended up supporting the zoning change, its district representative did not.

Jim Love said given the residential character of the street and the overlay, he couldn't support the plan. He said he wants the developers to succeed as entrepreneurs, just in a different spot.

"This location is not the right place," he said. "The overlay rule is a rule to be followed ... not run roughshod over."

He compared it to past zoning disputes, although those situations had a compromise in the end that didn't require a special hearing like the one that has taken place in the past week.

The other opposing vote came from Lori Boyer, who continuously questioned staff on the Planned Unit Development process in relation to how it can be applied to existing overlays.

While she liked the concept of the restaurant, she said the people in that area voted for its historic nature and such an establishment would increase the intensity of the entire street.

Most of those in support sympathized with Love, but backed the restaurant for various reasons.

Danny Becton said the buildings had been vacant for more than a decade and would require a business that can "make some serious money" to be sustainable. Turning it down might mean another decade sitting empty.

"If it's not this, then what's it going to be?" he asked.

Aaron Bowman said despite the road having residences, it can't be classified as residential. And with the city's fight against blight in neighborhoods, this was an opportunity.

Like most court cases, the two sides walked away with opposite reactions after the vote.

"I think that Jim Love listened to the people ... I think Lori Boyer knows the law," said Jennifer Wolfe, a nearby resident and member of the Positive Riverside Optimized Urban Development group, known as PROUD.

Wolfe said the decision doesn't support the area's overlay or the city's comprehensive plan and that "the people were not heard" in the matter.

Stein, the developer, said he was happy with the decision after the long debate and the group compromised on many issues.

Once the restaurant is done, he said the first objective would be to "work tirelessly to prove to the neighborhood we will be great neighbors."

While the committee vote is a step in that direction, it still has a few more before work can begin.

The final vote will be at the May 24 full council meeting. It was initially pegged for tonight, but the turnaround for members to review evidence would not have allowed enough time.

That decision likely won't be the final one, either.

For zoning issues like The Roost, the losing side is able to appeal to Circuit Court.

Wolfe said the arguments made during the special hearing make an "excellent case in court" and there would be an appeal should council follow the committee's direction.

Stein and Demetree declined comment as to whether they would appeal if council votes against them.

dchapman@jaxdailyrecord.com

@writerchapman

(904) 356-2466

[mtraininjax]

Its too bad Danny Becton doesn't believe in Historic Neighborhood values, after all the District 11 councilman represents sprawl and "progress" on the Southside of Jax. And Bowman co-sponsored the LGBT HRO bill back in January, some friend he is to the district and its residents.

[johnnyliar]

I'm extremely excited about this going forward.
I believe it will fit perfectly in the neighborhood.