9/11/2001

[DBCaulfield]

September 11, 2001

14 years later, and some part of me still aches for vengeance on each anniversary. I guess it's probably the same part that still can't quite believe it happened. What do you mean the Twin Towers no longer stand? Get real – they're the Twin Towers folks! Nothing can topple the Twin Towers......

Yes, bin Laden's dead, and, yes, we've probably killed more Al Qaeda operatives at this point than the total number of American citizens that died that day, but some part of me is still not satisfied. It's the part that's still not quite sure the entity that caused it – that struck us so egregiously on that day – has yet experienced the kind of "shock-&-awe" moment I think we all did on 9/11/2001.

For that part to feel its thirst for vengeance has been sated, it needs to know a shock-&-awe moment was experienced on Al Qaeda's part. Should I feel ashamed of that after the events of the past 14 years? A true, non-rhetorical question by the way – I just can't quite honestly say I'm all that sure.....

For me, the most horrific aspect of that day was represented by those people in the Twin Towers that chose to jump to their death vs. burn alive. I remember footage of firemen standing in an adjacent building's lobby, hearing the "bang" of bodies hitting the pavement outside (clearly heard through the camera footage).....how can you possibly top that on the horror scale?

I mean, just imagine that for a second. It's not like there were any illusions of some miraculous survival. Those folks knew, as they made that terrible choice, that this was it.

They woke up that morning, showered, had coffee, kissed their children's heads on their way off to school, rode the train into Manhattan, stopped for a bagel to eat at their desk, showed up at that desk on time – as usual, as always. Now, with zero advance notice, their life was ending – on this day, at this time and – ultimately – as a result of their own actions. I just cannot imagine what that must have been like.

The most horrific of all was a gentleman – footage I've only seen a couple of times since 9/11/2001 – that obviously hadn't quite come-to-terms with this reality just yet. He had broken out the window for air, but apparently was still trapped by the fire. He came up with the idea to attempt to use what appeared to be a computer power cord to swing out of his window and shinny down to another level.

Of course, sweaty hands, the relatively thin makeshift "rope" cutting into his palms, who knows what the other end was attached to – he didn't make it far. The news copter's camera was at just the right place to truly capture the horror of that moment.

You can see this gentleman realize that he's not going to make it – that this is it. There's the briefest moment where you can see a look of – I don't know – realization? – on his face, followed by another brief flash of what I'd describe as – acceptance? - as he lets go.

No, I'm not over it; on this day each year I'm nowhere near over it. Perhaps that "reverse shock-&-awe" moment will come someday. Perhaps I'll feel better afterwards (not real sure of that either). At that point, perhaps this day will become what Thanksgiving is becoming – a dimly-remembered "special" day of no real personal significance (TV commercials will proclaim: "Come to the 9/11 sale BLOWOUT"!). This will obviously be the case for the new generation preparing to take the reins, and all of those after. For my generation though.....

[Adam White]

Far, far more innocent people died as a result of American "vengeance" or whatever than died on 9/11. It's sick. What happened on 9/11 was terrrible, but what has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan (and elsewhere) since that day is far, far, far worse.

We should learn from our mistakes, bury the past and move on. This whole victim thing is nauseating.

[Adam White]

Wow, that didn't take long.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

[The_Choose_1]

Far, far more innocent people died as a result of American "vengeance" or whatever than died on 9/11. It's sick. What happened on 9/11 was terrrible, but what has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan (and elsewhere) since that day is far, far, far worse.

We should learn from our mistakes, bury the past and move on. This whole victim thing is nauseating.

Well you can blame George Walker Bush and his side kick Dick Cheney for going to war with Iraq and looking for those WMD's? But on September 11 2001 is what we should remember 14 years later. Not what has happen in Iraq or Afghanistan. And we have Never really learn from are mistakes now do we. The CIA and others helped kick the Russia's out of Afghanistan back in Soviet-Afghan war. Then when the soviet's left what did the United States do to help the Afghan's after the war. Not a Goddamn thing to help them get out of the stone age. And then look at history and what happen to Afghanistan. And your attitude of bury the past and move on, is part of the problem Adam.

[Adam White]

And yeah, the victim thing is nauseating.

If you lost a relative, friend, colleague, neighbor, etc on 9/11, then I am truly sorry. I certainly cannot fathom how that must feel.

But everyone else needs to move on. I'm not saying forget about what happened, I'm saying put it in context and realize that Americans have it far better than almost everyone else in this world.

Fewer than 3000 people died in the USA on that day (and since then) as a result of terrorism. To date, an estimated 142,659 - 164,530 civilians have been killed in Iraq alone as a result of America's misadventures (misadventures based on obvious lies and cheered on by the majority of Americans). Yet every year on 9/11, Americans wave their flags and try to "come to terms with what happened," etc. No one is shedding any tears for the thousands murdered in our name.

Climb down off your crosses and quit playing the victim card.

[Adam White]

Far, far more innocent people died as a result of American "vengeance" or whatever than died on 9/11. It's sick. What happened on 9/11 was terrrible, but what has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan (and elsewhere) since that day is far, far, far worse.

We should learn from our mistakes, bury the past and move on. This whole victim thing is nauseating.

Well you can blame George Walker Bush and his side kick Dick Cheney for going to war with Iraq and looking for those WMD's? But on September 11 2001 is what we should remember 14 years later. Not what has happen in Iraq or Afghanistan. And we have Never really learn from are mistakes now do we. The CIA and others helped kick the Russia's out of Afghanistan back in Soviet-Afghan war. Then when the soviet's left what did the United States do to help the Afghan's after the war. Not a Goddamn thing to help them get out of the stone age. And then look at history and what happen to Afghanistan. And your attitude of bury the past and move on, is part of the problem Adam.

I remember sitting in a bar, watching people cheer 'shock and awe' on the television. Anyone who didn't oppose those wars from the beginning has blood on his hands.

[coredumped]

Anyone who didn't oppose those wars from the beginning has blood on his hands.

47%-60% of Americans were for it in 2003:

Before the invasion in March 2003, polls showed 47-60% of the US public supported an invasion, dependent on U.N. approval. According to the same poll retaken in April 2007, 58% of the participants stated that the initial attack was a mistake. In May 2007, the New York Times and CBS News released similar results of a poll in which 61% of participants believed the U.S. "should have stayed out" of Iraq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq

Well you can blame George Walker Bush and his side kick Dick Cheney for going to war with Iraq and looking for those WMD's?

Obama has way more blood on his hands than Bush and Cheney. He's the most war-hungry democrat I think I've ever seen.

[Adam White]

Anyone who didn't oppose those wars from the beginning has blood on his hands.

47%-60% of Americans were for it in 2003:

Before the invasion in March 2003, polls showed 47-60% of the US public supported an invasion, dependent on U.N. approval. According to the same poll retaken in April 2007, 58% of the participants stated that the initial attack was a mistake. In May 2007, the New York Times and CBS News released similar results of a poll in which 61% of participants believed the U.S. "should have stayed out" of Iraq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq

I know. And it's sickening.

[spuwho]

Not to diminish the thread originator, but there have been other "days of infamy" in our history.

Pearl Harbor Day - December 7th
Bataan March Day - April 10th
Remember the Maine Day - February 15th
The Day Washington Burned - August 14th

The British still have a large painting of General George Cockburn with his sword in hand with Washington burning behind him on the walls in Greenwich.

While the Maine day is still contraversial in starting the Spanish American War, we still were honoring Pearl Harbor Day when I was in grade school.

Bataan March Day is big in the Phillippines, less so here.

[TheCat]

September 11, 2001

14 years later, and some part of me still aches for vengeance on each anniversary. I guess it's probably the same part that still can't quite believe it happened. What do you mean the Twin Towers no longer stand? Get real – they're the Twin Towers folks! Nothing can topple the Twin Towers......

Yes, bin Laden's dead, and, yes, we've probably killed more Al Qaeda operatives at this point than the total number of American citizens that died that day, but some part of me is still not satisfied. It's the part that's still not quite sure the entity that caused it – that struck us so egregiously on that day – has yet experienced the kind of "shock-&-awe" moment I think we all did on 9/11/2001.

For that part to feel its thirst for vengeance has been sated, it needs to know a shock-&-awe moment was experienced on Al Qaeda's part. Should I feel ashamed of that after the events of the past 14 years? A true, non-rhetorical question by the way – I just can't quite honestly say I'm all that sure.....

For me, the most horrific aspect of that day was represented by those people in the Twin Towers that chose to jump to their death vs. burn alive. I remember footage of firemen standing in an adjacent building's lobby, hearing the "bang" of bodies hitting the pavement outside (clearly heard through the camera footage).....how can you possibly top that on the horror scale?

I mean, just imagine that for a second. It's not like there were any illusions of some miraculous survival. Those folks knew, as they made that terrible choice, that this was it.

They woke up that morning, showered, had coffee, kissed their children's heads on their way off to school, rode the train into Manhattan, stopped for a bagel to eat at their desk, showed up at that desk on time – as usual, as always. Now, with zero advance notice, their life was ending – on this day, at this time and – ultimately – as a result of their own actions. I just cannot imagine what that must have been like.

The most horrific of all was a gentleman – footage I've only seen a couple of times since 9/11/2001 – that obviously hadn't quite come-to-terms with this reality just yet. He had broken out the window for air, but apparently was still trapped by the fire. He came up with the idea to attempt to use what appeared to be a computer power cord to swing out of his window and shinny down to another level.

Of course, sweaty hands, the relatively thin makeshift "rope" cutting into his palms, who knows what the other end was attached to – he didn't make it far. The news copter's camera was at just the right place to truly capture the horror of that moment.

You can see this gentleman realize that he's not going to make it – that this is it. There's the briefest moment where you can see a look of – I don't know – realization? – on his face, followed by another brief flash of what I'd describe as – acceptance? - as he lets go.

No, I'm not over it; on this day each year I'm nowhere near over it. Perhaps that "reverse shock-&-awe" moment will come someday. Perhaps I'll feel better afterwards (not real sure of that either). At that point, perhaps this day will become what Thanksgiving is becoming – a dimly-remembered "special" day of no real personal significance (TV commercials will proclaim: "Come to the 9/11 sale BLOWOUT"!). This will obviously be the case for the new generation preparing to take the reins, and all of those after. For my generation though.....

Thanks for sharing.

[TheCat]

Not to diminish the thread originator, but there have been other "days of infamy" in our history.

Pearl Harbor Day - December 7th
Bataan March Day - April 10th
Remember the Maine Day - February 15th
The Day Washington Burned - August 14th

The British still have a large painting of General George Cockburn with his sword in hand with Washington burning behind him on the walls in Greenwich.

While the Maine day is still contraversial in starting the Spanish American War, we still were honoring Pearl Harbor Day when I was in grade school.

Bataan March Day is big in the Phillippines, less so here.

That's part of his/her point, though. Despite the fact that these days become less well-known or commercialized, 9/11 is still very real to him/her.

[Adam White]

Anyone who didn't oppose those wars from the beginning has blood on his hands.

47%-60% of Americans were for it in 2003:

Before the invasion in March 2003, polls showed 47-60% of the US public supported an invasion, dependent on U.N. approval. According to the same poll retaken in April 2007, 58% of the participants stated that the initial attack was a mistake. In May 2007, the New York Times and CBS News released similar results of a poll in which 61% of participants believed the U.S. "should have stayed out" of Iraq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq

Well you can blame George Walker Bush and his side kick Dick Cheney for going to war with Iraq and looking for those WMD's?

Obama has way more blood on his hands than Bush and Cheney. He's the most war-hungry democrat I think I've ever seen.

I opposed the war from the beginning.  Most of the educated people in Jax did, Adam.  Although it was odd that so many of the indie and alt kids were reactionaries.

I was pretty sure you had, Stephen. Most of my friends - and certainly all of my close friends - did. Riverside was more anti-war than the rest of the city.

I obviously think 9/11 was a terrible day and I think the loss of life was absolutely heartbreaking and unfathomable. But I guess I can't get behind the sentiments of vengeance and nationalism. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And now, in addition to all the innocent dead people, we're all a lot less safe as a result.

One thing that makes me particularly sad is that, while a majority of Americans now think the war in Iraq was a bad idea, it seems that opinion is borne more out of the rise in terrorism and instability as well as the protracted nature (and cost) of the conflict and the American casualties. Not because of the massive loss of life or the lies that led to the invasion, etc.

We have things like the Wounded Warrior Project, but patriotic Americans certainly aren't lining up to take care of the Iraqis that were injured at the hands of these warriors. We're actually the "bad guy" in this one, yet most Americans don't seem to get that.

[Adam White]

And it was a terrible, fearful environment here at home.  People got mean and offensive. Anne Coulter literally had a book out calling people who didn't believe in the war traitors.  Everywhere you turned there were angry people ready to start yelling at you because: Terrorism.

Our family had a member in the towers that day, she was an accountant for one of the big firms, and she was killed (43 years old, very sad, and for us, the only lucky thing is that she had no children or spouse to leave behind) 

There was fearful talk about the 'government' surveilling and arresting people who disagreed with the so called "War on Terror". There were scares on the newly emergent internet. Stories of arrests of protestors sending emails from public libraries.

Conservative government officials got mean and nasty and powermad.  Even the Post Office could be a menacing place as the people working there suddenly had this mandate to be as forceful as they wanted to be, because you know: Terror and Anthrax.

Hell even snotfaced airline attendants could have you hogtied and detained by mysterious newly created officials.

A lot of educated people I knew began making armageddon plans in case it got more right wing.  Lots of interest in the French countryside.  People started talking quietly about how to leave the country.  It was terrible.

What got me was the awful self righteous nature of all these people who suddenly weren't acting like any kind of an American anyone had ever heard of.  It took four years for the fever to break.

https://www.youtube.com/v/A8FZ_nxmf0Y

Yeah, I was told to move to another country on countless occasions if I didn't like it ("it" being the war). I was just so shocked that so many would buy into what was so obviously a lie. But I think they knew it was a lie and didn't care. It didn't matter - it was about national pride, etc.

A lot of people were very personally touched by the events of that day - either directly or indirectly. I think that's why I get so irritated with so many who try to make it personal when they had no connection. Yeah - it was a shock for all of us. And yes, it was very scary. Those were incredibly dark days. But I have to be honest - I don't see 2015 being much better. If anything, it's worse. And it's worse as a direct result of things that were done in the name of vengeance and in the name of the innocents slaughtered on that day.

[Adam White]

Those videos are depressing. Well, Coulter is more infuriating than anything else, but it saddens me that she has a following. Ann Coulter is basically Fred Phelps.

[The_Choose_1]

And yeah, the victim thing is nauseating.

If you lost a relative, friend, colleague, neighbor, etc on 9/11, then I am truly sorry. I certainly cannot fathom how that must feel.

But everyone else needs to move on. I'm not saying forget about what happened, I'm saying put it in context and realize that Americans have it far better than almost everyone else in this world.

Fewer than 3000 people died in the USA on that day (and since then) as a result of terrorism. To date, an estimated 142,659 - 164,530 civilians have been killed in Iraq alone as a result of America's misadventures (misadventures based on obvious lies and cheered on by the majority of Americans). Yet every year on 9/11, Americans wave their flags and try to "come to terms with what happened," etc. No one is shedding any tears for the thousands murdered in our name.

Climb down off your crosses and quit playing the victim card.

  Today we should remember the people that died. Tomorrow you can be a loon about your facts. Lets not forget War is Hell. And so many people have been killed in wars since we humans stood up and could fight.