How All Aboard Florida Train Project Will Shift Traffic

[thelakelander]

What's the problem with these guys using their money? Seems the real complaints should be about billions of public dollars continuing to subsidize projects like the First Coast Expressway and Wekiva Parkway. Where's the outrage?

If you don't want to pay the fare, then drive, catch a bus or fly. If AAF fails, then that's Fortress and their investor's problem to deal with.

[NaldoAveKnight]

It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there.  I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though.  All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans.  I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage.  FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.

They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds.  Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare.  Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government.  That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook.  There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America.  Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart?  You will as a tax payer.

If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains.  These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on.  It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando.  A family of four using the train?  It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami.  I'm not sure if it makes any sense.  A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train?  Not sure if that makes sense either.  Who is the planned demographic?  These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.

I guess most of the posters here work for CSX? 

Funny does this guy even look at this site? We are tired of same old transportation BS that's forced down our throats. I am tired I having to get in my car and pay for parking downtown just to go 5 miles. I would love to go to Orlando\Miami\etc and not have to get in a car or a plane.

There's an existing bus and train system to service your needs.  It only costs $63 to travel from Jax to Miami on the train.  When was the last time you used this option?

Last time I went to Miami, actually.  Which was about two years ago.  In the meantime my taxes have been spent to maintain a massive highway system for your use to drive down there.

Cool, at least you're walking the walk.  I used the commuter train every day when I worked in Chicago because I sold my car when I moved up there in the late 90's.  Also used the commuter trains in SF, Boston, New York while visiting and had fantastic experiences.  It's a great thing for the right application. 

Destroying communities on the east coast by ramming a bunch of freight trains to the tune of an additional 32 trains per day doesn't add up for Florida.  Unfortunately the train companies have tied these track improvements to the cause of public transportation, effectively hoodwinking millions of well meaning folks that will support this illusion at any cost. 

This is classic corporate bait and switch.  Follow the money...

[iMarvin]

It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there.  I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though.  All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans.  I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage.  FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.

They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds.  Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare.  Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government.  That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook.  There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America.  Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart?  You will as a tax payer.

If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains.  These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on.  It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando.  A family of four using the train?  It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami.  I'm not sure if it makes any sense.  A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train?  Not sure if that makes sense either.  Who is the planned demographic?  These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.

I guess most of the posters here work for CSX? 

Funny does this guy even look at this site? We are tired of same old transportation BS that's forced down our throats. I am tired I having to get in my car and pay for parking downtown just to go 5 miles. I would love to go to Orlando\Miami\etc and not have to get in a car or a plane.

There's an existing bus and train system to service your needs.  It only costs $63 to travel from Jax to Miami on the train.  When was the last time you used this option?

Last time I went to Miami, actually.  Which was about two years ago.  In the meantime my taxes have been spent to maintain a massive highway system for your use to drive down there.

Destroying communities on the east coast by ramming a bunch of freight trains to the tune of an additional 32 trains per day doesn't add up for Florida.  Unfortunately the train companies have tied these track improvements to the cause of public transportation, effectively hoodwinking millions of well meaning folks that will support this illusion at any cost.

The trains and train tracks were there first, before the communities.

[CCMjax]

It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there.  I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though.  All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans.  I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage.  FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.

They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds.  Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare.  Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government.  That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook.  There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America.  Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart?  You will as a tax payer.

If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains.  These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on.  It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando.  A family of four using the train?  It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami.  I'm not sure if it makes any sense.  A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train?  Not sure if that makes sense either.  Who is the planned demographic?  These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.

I guess most of the posters here work for CSX?

No.  Just tired of paying for your highways and the entire tax monster that your preferred transportation has become for everyone in this country.

Exactly, Naldo, you have any idea how much this state spends on fixing highways and expanding them to accommodate the huge increases and projected increases in traffic volume?  Billions just in NE Florida.  How much are the 9B and I95 improvements costing the taxpayers of Florida?  Granted they would probably happen anyway even with a good rail network in place but some highway spending could be scaled back.  I'm all for it because I know that eventually it will be a necessity.

[thelakelander]

There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area).  Both of these roads alone, cost something like $2 billion each to construct. It's hard to hear anyone complain about misuse of public funds when there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.

[NaldoAveKnight]

There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area).  Both of these roads alone, cost something like $2 billion each to construct. It's hard to hear anyone complain about misuse of public funds when there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.

The All Aboard Florida boondoggle is from Miami to Orlando.  Jax has no skin in the game except for having it's port completely bypassed as the cargo ships offload shipments in Miami and for CSX's bottom line.  As Jax citizens we should want our port and our economy to grow, not Miami's.  The big ships going through the upgraded Panama canal are going to be offloaded in Miami, while destroying coral reefs and making a mess of the environment down there with deep water dredging.  We have little or no coral reefs up here so the dredging wouldn't be nearly as bad. 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/02/150226-miami-biscayne-bay-florida-coral-dredging-channels-environment/

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/us/despite-protections-miami-port-project-smothers-coral-reef-in-silt.html?_r=0

[Brian_Tampa]

There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area).  Both of these roads alone, cost something like $2 billion each to construct. It's hard to hear anyone complain about misuse of public funds when there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.

The All Aboard Florida boondoggle is from Miami to Orlando.  Jax has no skin in the game except for having it's port completely bypassed as the cargo ships offload shipments in Miami and for CSX's bottom line.  As Jax citizens we should want our port and our economy to grow, not Miami's.  The big ships going through the upgraded Panama canal are going to be offloaded in Miami, while destroying coral reefs and making a mess of the environment down there with deep water dredging.  We have little or no coral reefs up here so the dredging wouldn't be nearly as bad. 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/02/150226-miami-biscayne-bay-florida-coral-dredging-channels-environment/

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/us/despite-protections-miami-port-project-smothers-coral-reef-in-silt.html?_r=0

Exactly how is AAF a boondoggle? The owners of the project have done their homework and are willing to spend $2-3 Billion of private money to build the system.  PABs are only "subsidized" in the sense that the investors pay no taxes on their return on investment.  You do know that PABs have been used for private manufacturers expanding their businesses to create more jobs as well as for lots of public works projects such as water/wastewater plants, roads, etc...

Here is a good rebuttal to opponents of PABs:

http://www.munibondsforamerica.org/new-york-times-rebuttal-private-activity-bonds-support-job-creation-economic-development/

RRIF loans must have a certain amount of equity held in escrow depending on the risk.  AAF/FECI has said the amount of equity they would put in place would be substantial if they are awarded a RRIF loan. 

I am also curious and would like to know why you completely ignore the many billions of dollars worth of boondoggle road projects in Florida - most built specifically to benefit developers and add to the suburban sprawl?  AAF is a private project but it also serves a public need.  Therefore it should be eligible for some "corporate welfare" as you call it.  No one complains when Bass Pro sucks out millions of dollars from the communities it builds in. And Bass Pro has no direct public benefit!  Here in Tampa, we gave Bass Pro over $7 million in transportation (read roadway) improvement money.  That $7 million should have been invested in our public transit system here instead or at least for other roadway work that didn't benefit an individual business. At least AAF is putting up real money unlike so many other recipients of "corporate welfare".

And by the way, FECR could run twice the number of freight trains (more than required for any projected increase in port traffic, by the way) without having to do any improvements to their tracks.  Sounds like you have been reading the FNAA and CARE talking points too much.

[spuwho]

It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there.  I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though.  All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans.  I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage.  FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.

They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds.  Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare.  Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government.  That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook.  There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America.  Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart?  You will as a tax payer.

If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains.  These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on.  It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando.  A family of four using the train?  It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami.  I'm not sure if it makes any sense.  A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train?  Not sure if that makes sense either.  Who is the planned demographic?  These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.

I guess most of the posters here work for CSX?

Disclaimer: I dont work for CSX or any other transportation entity.

Tax free PAB's are a Florida infrastructure investment tool

The biggest one in Florida is called the "Reedy Creek Improvement District". Otherwise known as Disneyworld.

A tool to facilitate infrastructure improvements that have a public accommodation. Those PAB's not only paid for the rides at Disney, but they pay for the supporting roads, sewage, water management and other capital intensive instruments to maintain the properties.

Those instruments are also used to build hospitals, schools, resorts and other large public related projects.

The RRIF is a large capital lending tool used by the US DOT for railroads due to the fact that historically banks dont like to lend large dollar for rail projects. Railroads have to provide all of the same financial instruments any type of loan requires. Collateral, Cash Flow, Credit Worthiness.

So the Feds would be on the hook only if the whole thing fails. Obviously they would want their money back and would foreclose and see the collateral sold off. So yes there is risk there. Just so you know, the largest US railroads use the RRIF all the time. UP, CSX, NS have all used the tool periodically.

While many have speculated how much the AAF trip will cost, they have not published a formal fare schedule yet. Also it is expected that AAF will be partnering with various tourism entities for ride inclusions as part of a vacation package.

Another tidbit is that most of the entities that have utilized the PAB tool offer Florida resident discounts as a courtesy thank you for the tax break. I suspect AAF will be no different and offer a similar discount.

Everyone gets a tax break. Your standard deduction on your 1040 is a tax break. The City of Jacksonville provides tax incentives. State of Florida provides tax incentives.

Corporate Welfare by definition would be an ongoing revenue redirection from a tax supplied coffer to support the operation of a private entity so it will survive.

What part of AAF do you see as welfare?

[southsider1015]

There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area).  Both of these roads alone, cost something like $2 billion each to construct. It's hard to hear anyone complain about misuse of public funds when there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.

2 billion over 20+ years, maybe, if we ever see the 8-lane ultimate section, which we won't.  And it'll be tolled by FTE, so its not completely paid for by tax payers, but by the users.  We've been thru this before, come on.

Can't we have as many transportation options as necessary to balance needs?  More AAF, more highways, more commuter rail, more Uber, more ports, etc?  Why aren't we investing more in our infrastructure?

[CCMjax]

There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area).  Both of these roads alone, cost something like $2 billion each to construct. It's hard to hear anyone complain about misuse of public funds when there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.

2 billion over 20+ years, maybe, if we ever see the 8-lane ultimate section, which we won't.  And it'll be tolled by FTE, so its not completely paid for by tax payers, but by the users.  We've been thru this before, come on.

Can't we have as many transportation options as necessary to balance needs?  More AAF, more highways, more commuter rail, more Uber, more ports, etc?  Why aren't we investing more in our infrastructure?

Yes, there needs to be balance.  And that's the point, it's not balanced right now.  There is too much emphasis on roadwork instead of other forms.  Florida is actually a great state to have something like AAF.  Several large cities relatively close, lots of tourists, growing urban populations and too much traffic.

[thelakelander]

Southsider, I'm actually a fan of tolls. However, the FCE's tolls aren't going to pay for it's capital cost.  If we're lucky, they'll cover a portion of the highway's maintenance cost. With that said, I'm fine with highway projects that make sense.  Just like I'm fine with transit projects, that don't make sense, being scrapped. As far as AAF goes, I have no complaints.  They're funding it themselves. More power to Fortress. I hope they make a ton of cash off their investment.

[southsider1015]

Southsider, I'm actually a fan of tolls. However, the FCE's tolls aren't going to pay for it's capital cost.  If we're lucky, they'll cover a portion of the highway's maintenance cost. With that said, I'm fine with highway projects that make sense.  Just like I'm fine with transit projects, that don't make sense, being scrapped. As far as AAF goes, I have no complaints.  They're funding it themselves. More power to Fortress. I hope they make a ton of cash off their investment.

Actually, if you think about it, no capital costs could technically be paid by the tolls, given that you have to pay to build it first before revenues can be gathered from them.  So really, of course it makes sense that funds from tolls from a previously built toll road would be used to fund construction for a new toll road.

What's your source that explains that FTE toll revenues barely cover maintenance?  I think it's a general assumption, rather than fact. 

FCE makes sense for Clay County, the ONLY county in Florida without an Expressway.  Have you met anyone from the Clay Chamber of Commerce? 

[thelakelander]

My source? A few years back, I attended a meeting where Ananth Prasad said it. Btw, there are lots of counties in this state without expressways. Some examples include Taylor, Lafayette, Dixie, Gilcrist, Levy, Putnam, Hardee, Highlands, Glades, Henry, etc.

[southsider1015]

My source? A few years back, I attended a meeting where Ananth Prasad said it. Btw, there are lots of counties in this state without expressways. Some examples include Taylor, Lafayette, Dixie, Gilcrist, Levy, Putnam, Hardee, Highlands, Glades, Henry, etc.

Sorry...Clay County is the LARGEST county in Florida without an Expressway.  Not ONLY.  I inadvertently skewed the fact just a tad. 

I can't imagine Prasad making a public statement like that.  My understanding is that FTE monies (and highway facilities) are seperate of FDOTs funds.  I'm not sure, but I believe FTE is solvent, meaning that toll revenues are kept with FTE roadway facilities (construction and maintainenece).  I don't know if this is true, but its my general understanding of how FTE is setup.  Of course, FTE needed tax dollars to get started many a few decades ago. 

Of course, if FDOT dollars are used to fund construction of FTE toll roads, then this is all a moot point.

[thelakelander]

You may not imagine but I've heard it from him and others on more than one occasion. Remember, I'm pretty familiar with the industry too! FTE's tolls won't cover the construction costs. I'm pretty sure about that. I doubt they cover the true cost of maintenance.  However, they should not be expected too, just like no one should expect transit costs to be recovered 100% at the fare box.