History Of Tha Streetz: Another Side of Jacksonville

[Ocklawaha]

FIRST OFF, as for freeways, they always function like the Great Wall of China. Compare that with a, um, streetcar track or bus route and you see why they are community killers. Notice I didn't say compare that with a BRT route because the best BRT systems are narrow freeways with walled off or elevated roadways.

None of this get's better without the motivation on the part of the individuals, however a city that welcomes the homeless, poor, underachievers, etc. should be up to the game of providing a real incentive to get out of that situation. Indeed, if Jacksonville were to offer life changing opportunities, and drill that news down to the lowest, and worst among us, most would take the step up and out of their situation. Of course this takes motivation on the part of both the citizen and the city, but imagine a different Jacksonville...

OKAY HERE I GO DREAMING OF A FIX: (but hey, that's what I do)

I think Oklahoma is on the right track with the 'Oklahoma Military Academy,' in Pryor. My wayward youngest son graduated there some years after his kindergarten class voted him most likely to do 5-10 in Raiford!  All the student needs is the okay to attend, zero drug use in a hair test, and the will to hold up under the 45Th Infantry Division's - American Indian toughness. Upon graduation each student received something like 3k from the state, and any student going military after the academy gets a whooping dose of 'CAN-DO' for the future, with the military waving certain requirements or entry at a higher rank. This system works because at the end of the year, every student has a place to go, work choices and enough money for a small apartment rental.

Another school without the military element could function with heavy buy-in from the corporate community. You have to give them a reason to go and that stipend of 3-5k per student is a real incentive. A micro WPA/CCC might be part of this unit.

A independent non governmental school with a community/church (think groups like Save Our Sons) administration functioning on a vocational - technical level and using Oklahoma's generous stipend and employment concepts through the corporate community could really help those that never had the benefit of a family. Groups like Children of the Night, Hookers for Jesus, SOS, are able to drill to the bottom and offer a hand up.

GET THE JAIL and the main police station out of prime downtown real-estate. The police could easily (maybe better) function from a clean modern office building. The jail was once at Imeson and it's a damn shame it's not still there but perhaps it could return.

I doubt homeless shelters at Cecil will function well due to the lack of transportation connectivity, again Imeson or west of I-95 might work...

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

I completely understand what you are saying and the history in that area (Raines being the traditionally black school/area and Ribault being traditionally white and segregation's role as you spoke of earlier). However, I thought most of the Ribault River area was developed before the interstate came through Jax in 1960.

I also was more just bringing up Moncrief to discuss the lack of investment around there but that the interstate did not have a major role in any issues there. LaVilla, yes, but not in north Jax much. I actually think those areas near the interstate (maybe not the neighborhoods directly fronting the interstate) are primed to revitalize if revitalization inches north from Springfield due to convenience up to the airport and down to DT and Southside for work purposes. The farther west you go, the more difficult I think the revitalization process will be because it is tough to get anywhere. All I am saying is I think the highway may be an asset moving into the future.

[thelakelander]

The Ribault River area wasn't divided by the interstate. It's also an autocentric suburban area where rapid growth occurred after WWII. The construction of the 20th Street Expressway helped facilitate growth in that area and nearby subdivisions like Sherwood Forest.

The established neighborhoods impacted by the original Jacksonville Expressway, going south from the Trout River would have been portions of Norwood, Moneincrief, Brentwood, Durkeeville, Sugar Hill, LaVilla, Campbell Hill, Brooklyn, etc. All of these areas predate WWII and some date back to the 19th century.

All I am saying is I think the highway may be an asset moving into the future.

Perhaps it will be. However, it was a major reason for jump starting their decline during the 50s, when the land clearing efforts began. It cut many of these hoods half, displaced thousands of residents and businesses, took out many of the community amenities (ex. Wilder Park, etc.), and rerouted through traffic from their commercial streets.

[I-10east]

More of a low income, uneducated population issue than a race issue in many respects.  Ever hung around a beat up old trailer park in the middle of Redneckville, USA?

I'll tell you one thing, those people generally don't bother anyone and stay to themselves. They aren't constant shootings of people in rural area trailer parks either.

[I-10east]

You, specifically mentioned Myrtle and Moncrief. Both are great examples of getting hammered by the 20th Street Expressway and I-95 in the 1950s/60s.

I had a feeling that someone was gonna mention MLK like it's some uncommon, impassable Great Wall of China. I totally but respectfully disagree Lake.

[thelakelander]

^Who said anything about an impassable Great Wall of China?  I just gave you one of things that led to these neighborhood's decline. I assume you believe in black flight? How do you think something like that happens? Obviously, there have to be some negative factors at play that result in those who have the financial means (regardless of race), to leave....thus further sending the area being abandoned into economic chaos.

Anyway, it's totally fine that you disagree. It's already been nationally proven and accepted. Bringing I-10 on board or not isn't going to change reality at this point. One of the things I, and many other planners working in the transportation industry, do on a daily basis is to make sure future projects and infrastructure retrofits are built to be context sensitive. That is, they are designed to be multimodal friendly and to integrate well with the communities they serve and penetrate. The reason public agencies are doing this nationwide is because they've learned from their mistakes in the past and are working diligently for fix them.


A before and after example of a street like State & Union being retrofitted to better serve the neighborhood it penetrates.

[IrvAdams]

You, specifically mentioned Myrtle and Moncrief. Both are great examples of getting hammered by the 20th Street Expressway and I-95 in the 1950s/60s.

I had a feeling that someone was gonna mention MLK like it's some uncommon, impassable Great Wall of China. I totally but respectfully disagree Lake.

I grew up in that area and always wondered why there was a limited-access highway through a standard single family housing district. Theres no doubt it creates a wall, deliberate or not. This divider is a pain in the ass for locals who may simply want to travel three or four blocks, and  encourages pass through for others. If not a direct cause for crime and decay, it is arguable a contributing factor, creating dead end streets and geographic boundaries.

Crime and neighborhood deterioration occurs over time and affects local residents regardless of race. The MLK expressway and it's divisive nature were certainly factors for struggling white families from my (baby boomer) generation also. I often felt isolated and overlooked in this area, as if it were something to escape from and a neighborhood my city wanted everyone to rush through, on their way elsewhere.

IMO Main Street is the largest thoroughfare this area ever required, and could have been absorbed into the fabric without creating fraction. Between MLK and I95 one large neighborhood has over time become several, losing much cohesion.

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

More of a low income, uneducated population issue than a race issue in many respects.  Ever hung around a beat up old trailer park in the middle of Redneckville, USA?

I'll tell you one thing, those people generally don't bother anyone and stay to themselves. They aren't constant shootings of people in rural area trailer parks either.

Drugs changed that. The low income white areas got killed by prescription drugs and meth in the last decade. Tons of drug violence has happened as a result and just problems that follow bad decisions. This is mostly overlooked by the media though. I was talking to a tow truck driver my age from Middleburg about how bad the prescription drug issue is around there. He was the poster boy for this but did 6 months in jail and tried to change his life around. Gangs are not a real issue though like in urban black areas in the same way.

[I-10east]

^^^I don't think that it's comparable, and black neighborhoods is an unique issue. Everyone always wanna make that 'they do it too' argument concerning violence, but per capita, it's vastly disproportionate, there's no way around it. I really don't get to whole 'everything is okay' argument with the black community, and the deflecting to other communities that are actually much healthier. Decent blacks want a change, and liberals and the like saying 'everything is okay, they do it too' isn't helping the situation.

[thelakelander]

^Income is also very disproportionate in the areas being singled out. High concentrations of poverty and crime go hand-in-hand. No matter the color, the results turn out the same. Wahneta is an example of a neighborhood roughly 5k residents in my hometown that struggles with crime.  However, it's not black....it's 70% white and 47% latino. Meth is a larger issue there than in Jax's inner city neighborhoods. The link between it and some of Jax's crime riddled neighborhoods?  High concentration of crime and poverty, instead of color. Nevertheless, it seems you're of the belief that there is something specifically wrong with blacks in general, that other races don't have to deal with, when placed in the same environmental setting. That's difficult argument to prove beyond surface level stereotyping.

[I-10east]

Nevertheless, it seems you're of the belief that there is something specifically wrong with blacks in general, that other races don't have to deal with, when placed in the same environmental setting. That's difficult argument to prove beyond surface level stereotyping.

Nope!!! I never said that all blacks have a problem, that would be very foolish; You put those words in my mouth. Go on and look back at what I said, I covered my ass (a must on PC laden MJ) with words like 'many' blacks not 'all'. I started off with the convo about black people and the often pernicious culture that many take part in (which is in line with this thread) and of course you and others deflect to other races like this is an apples to apples comparison.

The violent crime (specifically) is vastly disproportionate from blacks to other races just like I said earlier. There are many examples of poor people around the country that aren't killing each other at a continuous staggering pace; West Virginia, many rural areas all throughout the Deep South, Midwest etc; Poor Asian and Hispanic areas of places like Brooklyn, and on and on. So the old 'poor = violent crime' argument is a proven canard. People like me that is tired of the BS in our so called 'community' gets vilified for truly taking on these issues.

Like I said, nothing change anyway because enabling is the 'progressive' way. Racism will continue mainly because of these overwhelmingly lop-sided interracial violent crime stats. The PC liberal media (and even some conservatives to some extent) will continue to treat blacks like handicapped children (which truly is racist) with this BS black victimization rubbish, and on and on and on the vicious cycle goes...   

[thelakelander]

Sometimes you sound like you're taking your info straight off a FOX News script. I'm in the middle of putting a few stories together for this week,  so I'll have to respond in greater detail a little later.