JTA to begin DT Jax-St. Augustine commuter rail study

[thelakelander]

Ennis, all that you say makes sense. I think you're just focused more on reality and I was simply praising the notion of potentially putting the horse before the cart, as it should be.

My perspective is impacted by my knowledge of local politics, potential funding opportunities/limitations, regional traffic patterns, land use policies/growth patterns, committed future transportation projects and believing something like this will need some type of local tax increase for a dedicated funding source. We're already a pretty conservative region, so we need to be on point with a solid project when the time and opportunity comes. Nevertheless, I don't mind studying to get a better feel on what the numbers say. It should let us know if it's feasible as initial proposed and if not, provide documentation of what we need to improve on.

[exnewsman]

On the commuter rail corridor study that FSUJA did a few years back, it showed limited density and too low ridership levels to implement. But this study will tell us if the First Coast has moved the needle on any of that. It's unlikely enough to make a "system" viable, but perhaps one line would be doable. Get enough people out of their cars and on the train... maybe. Only possible using existing track though. And that 's what the initial study was based on - to ST. Augustine, to Green Cove Springs/Palatka, and to Yulee/Kings Bay.

[Ocklawaha]

Here's a cheap graphic that might help some understand how this all works :
  = PASSENGER     X=STATIONS/stops

Start:  Passenger boards local Spring Park local bus
   
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Note the many local stops/it only meets the BRT at University Blvd.
             
X     X      X     X      X      X  Board BRT @ University, exit at Baymeadows for rail
                             
X                            X             X                              X                             X    X    X
                                                                                                             Rider exits train at St. Aug

I believe our own commuter rail will show initial higher ridership on the Roosevelt Blvd route into Clay County, partly due to demographics and partly due to VISIBILITY.  Nothing like sitting at a traffic light on Roosevelt and Verona, and watch a Commuter Train, DMU, RDC blow past you at 70 mph to open ones untrained eyes to rapid transit.

St. Augustine has an advantage being a much larger city as an endpoint and can attract much larger ridership. Weekend service is probably a very real possibility if JTA is smart enough to allow a bike/baggage rack at the car doors on the trains. This would allow passengers to ticket on Amtrak from NYC to JAX and transfer to commuter rail for downtown St. Augustine. The classic 'AVAILABLE' St Augustine FEC RY station is now positioned awkwardly to serve as a stop. Will the Winn-Dixie plaza on FEC Land come down? Will AAF redevelop the property? Will the tracks be shifted back to the US-1 proximity?

BTW ST AUGUSTINE, your Aircraft plant to Airport Terminal to County Complex to old FEC Station to downtown segment could be much better served by a 1923 vintage narrow-gauge streetcar running alongside San Marco/Ponce de Leon.  JUST SAYIN' 

[coredumped]

Studies are nice and all (lord knows JTA has done a few) but what are the odds of them moving forward with this? It seems like spend a million dollars every few years on a study, let it sit until it's not longer valid and repeat.

Is there something they're looking for (dollar amount, etc) that will help them move forward on this when it comes back?

[thelakelander]

On the commuter rail corridor study that FSUJA did a few years back, it showed limited density and too low ridership levels to implement. But this study will tell us if the First Coast has moved the needle on any of that. It's unlikely enough to make a "system" viable, but perhaps one line would be doable. Get enough people out of their cars and on the train... maybe. Only possible using existing track though. And that 's what the initial study was based on - to ST. Augustine, to Green Cove Springs/Palatka, and to Yulee/Kings Bay.

Since most of the years between that study and now were a recession, my guess is the needle has not moved much.

[Ocklawaha]

With a near certainty, anything running north or northwest of downtown is going to end up being:
1. BRT
2. STREETCAR
3. RAPID-STREETCAR - a faster more Light Rail version at a low price.

Why? The stage lengths between major stops and centers are just too short and regular rail, even with the 'S' line is still rather circuitous. Such a thing could work provided they rebuilt the 'S' then straightened out the jog so it would not go into Gateway but straight north through Springfield to Busch. JAXPORT is actually and likely to be the agency that pulls the trigger on any 'S' line rebuild:

Taking ownership and control of all railroad trackage east of the Moncrief/Simpson Yard complex and north of the river all the way into Kingsland.
This opens the door for JAXPORT-NASSAU COUNTY PORT AUTHORITY merger or agreements, for a future PORT ST. MARYS GA. as part of the JAXPORT complex, and puts a neutral carrier in place that grants access to all three major railroads in the city. It also lines the Port up with the Airport area and the Free Trade Zone becomes a more attractive location along with Imeson. Someday perhaps an Airport road station?

JAXPORT is understandingly being woo'ed by CSX to "Just allow us to build a state funded bypass around the north of the airport to connect the main port with the mainline." Which is all well in good if you are CSX! It's a VERY BAD deal for FEC and NS RAILROADS and as such in the long run shoots the port in the foot by being 'America's Logistics Center.... you know? The port served by only one railroad.'

The shear power of a JAXPORT - JTA - JIA triad would be enough to get shovels turning... chirp.

[thelakelander]

I believe our own commuter rail will show initial higher ridership on the Roosevelt Blvd route into Clay County, partly due to demographics and partly due to VISIBILITY.  Nothing like sitting at a traffic light on Roosevelt and Verona, and watch a Commuter Train, DMU, RDC blow past you at 70 mph to open ones untrained eyes to rapid transit.

Better yet, there's actual congestion on Blanding and Park and there really is no way to resolve the issues facing either of them between Jax and Fleming Island.

St. Augustine has an advantage being a much larger city as an endpoint and can attract much larger ridership. Weekend service is probably a very real possibility if JTA is smart enough to allow a bike/baggage rack at the car doors on the trains. This would allow passengers to ticket on Amtrak from NYC to JAX and transfer to commuter rail for downtown St. Augustine. The classic 'AVAILABLE' St Augustine FEC RY station is now positioned awkwardly to serve as a stop. Will the Winn-Dixie plaza on FEC Land come down? Will AAF redevelop the property? Will the tracks be shifted back to the US-1 proximity?

BTW ST AUGUSTINE, your Aircraft plant to Airport Terminal to County Complex to old FEC Station to downtown segment could be much better served by a 1923 vintage narrow-gauge streetcar running alongside San Marco/Ponce de Leon.  JUST SAYIN' 

I agree that St. Augustine would be a good weekend destination. However, weekend service isn't a part of the plan.  Just a few random trains during weekday peak hours.  I doubt we have that many people commuting between St. Augustine and DT Jax in the morning. It sure doesn't appear that way on my drives between Southpoint and DT.

[UNFurbanist]

Would this possible commuter rail line be on the same track that AAF is looking into using for their expansion into Jax?

[thelakelander]

yes.

[tufsu1]

I believe our own commuter rail will show initial higher ridership on the Roosevelt Blvd route into Clay County, partly due to demographics and partly due to VISIBILITY.  Nothing like sitting at a traffic light on Roosevelt and Verona, and watch a Commuter Train, DMU, RDC blow past you at 70 mph to open ones untrained eyes to rapid transit.

Better yet, there's actual congestion on Blanding and Park and there really is no way to resolve the issues facing either of them between Jax and Fleming Island.

The early studies done by JTA showed that the Clay County line and the St. Johns County line were very similar in terms of ridership.  What has them going forward with the southeast route is political support from the county and no red light from the folks at FEC (unlike CSX).

[Coolyfett]

I dont see this being built. Not enough people to use it. Jax is too small.

[Ocklawaha]

That Blanding corridor would be best served if there was a way to follow the west bank of the Ortega with LRT crossing over to the main gate OF has JAX aka: 'YUKON' and thus paralleling the CSX north into the city. Such a line could use the river corridor to remain free from auto congestion, high speed, and frankly, if you got as far south as the Oak Leaf, turning south along the old Interurban grade (M/L Old Middleburg Road) you could keep going far southwest. A LRT junction at NAS YUKON a second route could tap Orange Park, Doctors Lake, Russell, Magnolia Springs and Green Cove. I wouldn't hold out much hope for the 'commuter rail' if it is locomotive hauled such as Sunrail/Tri-Rail, of ever getting south of mid Fleming Island. I believe any study will show that a large majority of the OP/Roosevelt rush is actually Bellair/OP Mall to Yukon.

Certainly the initial investment in this type of LRT would be quite high, but the payoff would be incalculably high. It could also serve as a rail/trail parkway along the river keeping civilization out whilst leaving post construction nature unmolested.

St. Augustine weekenders would not be part of any initial plan but failing to get:
AAF into Jax
Amtrak on the FEC
Combined with bringing what little Amtrak is left into the JRTC might set a precedent usable at a latter date from Orlando/Disney Park.

NATIONALLY/REGIONALLY
On a grander scale what we are seeing is the embryonic start of a State sponsored regional rail line from: St. Petersburg-Tampa-Lakeland-Orlando-Sanford-Deland-Palatka-Yukon-Jax. Under Democrats such a line will be state funded, owned and operated, under Republicans it will be some combination of private/public with tax incentives. Both will have advantages and disadvantages but with Amtrak's lethargy and eternal battles, I'm betting on Scott/FEC leading the way to some sort of 'future rail.'

We already have copy-cat operations in the making using some of this creative thinking. Indiana just killed the Hoosier State, a 4 day a week Amtrak operated loser carrying just 31,000 annual passengers to the Chicago Hub from Indianapolis. The FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION (FRA) hastened the death just as the state was taking bids to do it's own AAF with 'Iowa Pacific,' by declaring states funding railroad operations as 'railroads' bringing down huge costs and new work loads for the states to comply with. There is no telling how this could effect Florida. There is also no telling how this will effect Oklahoma which is also about to sign on with Iowa Pacific to fund it's own OKC-TULSA operations (only in this case the state DOES or recently did own the railroad).

New federal policy led Indiana to end Chicago-Indianapolis Amtrak route

Depending on its final form, the policy being drafted by the Federal Railroad Administration could make it impossible for some states to keep their Amtrak routes running, said Patricia Quinn, who chairs the Portland, Maine-based States for Passenger Rail Coalition.

The Hoosier State line's last day of service is April 1, and the Indiana Department of Transportation in Friday's announcement blamed an emerging FRA policy that the state said would effectively deem Indiana a rail carrier even though it does not own any tracks or trains.

INDOT Commissioner Karl Browning called that idea "insane," saying it would significantly increase costs, paperwork and liability for operating the line, which was among 28 Amtrak routes of less than 750 miles affected by a law Congress passed in 2008 that forced 19 states to pick up most of the costs of those lines by late 2013.

INDOT has said it would reconsider its move to end the Hoosier State line only if the FRA or U.S. Department of Transportation reversed the rail carrier policy.

U.S. Sen. Dan Coats, R-Ind., sent a letter Wednesday to the FRA's acting administrator urging the agency to "reverse its decision" to deem INDOT a railroad carrier.

"INDOT is not in a position to assume either the additional liability or the regulatory burdens that a designation of 'railroad carrier' would impose," Coats said in a statement. A.P. NEWS WIRE

[Ocklawaha]

The early studies done by JTA showed that the Clay County line and the St. Johns County line were very similar in terms of ridership.  What has them going forward with the southeast route is political support from the county and no red light from the folks at FEC (unlike CSX).

ABSOLUTELY my friend, failed to mention that one, too obvious I guess. Many railroads CSX, CN, UP, KCS are almost violently anti passenger rail of any way shape or type and will do anything within their power to blow it away. FEC has always been a maverick but their feelings seem shared by NS and BNSF to some degree. This is why I still think AAF's 'ultimate goal' is not JAX-MIA, but ATL-JAX-MIA with the Orlando link in place. Thoughts on this include:
FEC and NS now have track sharing agreements and run through on this route with freight barely stopping end to end.
NS recently going back into a limited excursion train business and a CEO making some bold positive passenger rail statements on Capitol Hill.

Guess this means that we could someday ride JTA/FEC (and believe me we might get the trains with JTA no where in site as far as this railroad is concerned) Imagine Jacksonville to Moniac and St. George! 

[Ocklawaha]

I dont see this being built. Not enough people to use it. Jax is too small.

You are not in reality on this one, we have finally reached the size and spread where investing now will save BILLIONS later. JAX is not too small, not to thinly populated, we sprawled but with significant easily definable corridors. Ranks in the worst traffic cities, no where near the top but to be on the list is to be warned. Has an amazing network of existent rail lines, making a JPA-JTA-JIA purchase of everything east of Moncrief/Simpson Yards and north of the river a vital cornerstone, both as a commuter rail and a true multi-modal/multi-carrier rail center.

List of United States commuter rail systems by ridership Edited to include the smaller operators and plans in North America

System   Country   Metropolitan area   Province / State  Name   Avg. Weekday Ridership

A-train    USA   Denton County   Texas   1,900

Music City Star    USA   Nashville   Tennessee   1,000

New Mexico Rail Runner Express    USA   Albuquerque–Santa Fe   New Mexico   3,400

Northstar Commuter Rail    USA   Minneapolis–St. Paul   Minnesota   2,500

Shore Line East    USA   New Haven–New London   Connecticut   2,200

SunRail    USA   Orlando   Florida   3,200

Utah Transit Authority (the FrontRunner)[6]    USA   Ogden–Salt Lake City–Provo   Utah   16,800

WES Commuter Rail  Portland - Westside communities Oregon - 1,800 daily

WHO'S NEXT according to official sources?


Metropolitan Area   Country   Province(s)   Name   Official

Anchorage    USA   Alaska   Alaska Railroad    
Ann Arbor    USA   Michigan   WALLY   
Atlanta / Athens / Macon    USA   Georgia   Georgia Rail Passenger Program,
Charlotte    USA   North Carolina   LYNX Red Line   
Cleveland    USA   Ohio   Cleveland commuter rail   
Cincinnati    USA   Ohio   Eastern Corridor Commuter Rail      
Greensboro    USA   North Carolina   TRIAD Commuter Rail
Indianapolis    USA   Indiana   IndyConnect Green Line   
Jacksonville    USA   Florida   First Coast Commuter Rail      
Madison    USA   Wisconsin   Dane County Commuter Rail,   
Pittsburgh    USA   Pennsylvania   Eastern Corridor
Raleigh / Durham / Cary
(Research Triangle)    USA   North Carolina   Durham-Wake Corridor   
San Antonio / Austin    USA   Texas   LSTAR      
Scranton, Pennsylvania

[thelakelander]

All those ridership statistics are strong reason to be cautious about spending millions to add a seldom operated commuter service along the FEC. The FrontRunner is really the only successful one on the list. However, that city has LRT, BRT, and streetcar to feed it with riders. If we follow the successful Salt Lake City model, we'd implement a small LRT project in the urban core first.

As for the FEC corridor, with BRT, AAF, and Amtrak possibly coming on line along that corridor, I seriously doubt random commuter rail generates half of what Sunrail pulls in now.....which is bad. The same amount of cash it would take to get such a service up and running could serve a much larger population, funding something with more frequent service in an area where the density is higher and the land use is more compatible.