JTA to begin DT Jax-St. Augustine commuter rail study

[thelakelander]

St. Augustine drivers might be getting a cure for their commuting woes

St. Augustine and St. Johns County residents who are tired of the I-95 slog might be getting a cure for their morning commute.
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority is studying the viability of a commuter rail system on the Southeast corridor, between Downtown and St. Augustine.

The study, which will be completed this time next year, looks at potential ridership, the cost to build and operate the systems and where the stations would be. The study being conducted by Parsons Brinckerhoff costs $525,000.

"We're doing all the modeling tools required for us to then determine the next steps," said spokeswoman Leigh Ann Rassler. "The study is required for us to apply for federal funding."

JTA hasn't budgeted for designing or building the system, but the organization could apply for federal grants to bring the project to fruition. While an actual figure is yet to be determined, the commuter rail is estimated to cost as much as $200 million.

The commuter rail, Rassler said, is about 20 to 30 miles long and would stop less frequently. It would also only run during peak hours: about three times during morning and evening rush hour, and once around the lunch rush.

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/05/20/st-augustine-drivers-might-be-getting-a-cure-for.html

[Tacachale]

Wow, interesting.

[thelakelander]

Time flies. Some places have planned, constructed, completed and are operating new lines since the initial commuter rail study of this corridor. Here's the numbers from the 2008 study:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-commuter-rail-study-update-costs-and-ridership

Southeast Corridor

This corridor would use the FEC line between Downtown Jacksonville and St. Augustine. Preliminary estimates indicate it would attract the highest ridership and cost the least to implement. Of interesting note, the study shows the Downtown Southbank (San Marco) station attracting more rail riders than the Jacksonville Terminal.

Service Frequencies: 30 minute peak service/60 minute off-peak service

Travel Time from JTC - Distance from JTC - Stations

0 minutes - 0.0 miles - Jacksonville Transportation Center
3 minutes - 1.1 miles - San Marco
6 minutes - 3.6 miles - Emerson Street
11 minutes - 7.2 miles - J Turner Butler Boulevard
15 minutes - 9.0 miles - Baymeadows Road
20 minutes - 13.3 miles - Avenues
23 minutes - 15.8 miles - Old St. Augustine Road
28 minutes - 19.3 miles - Race Track Road
36 minutes - 27.5 miles - Palencia
41 minutes - 31.8 miles - St. Augustine - St. Johns County Airport
44 minutes - 33.6 miles - St. Augustine - St. Johns County Complex
47 minutes - 35.7 miles - St. Augustine - Historic District
51 minutes - 38.4 miles - St. Augustine - West St. Augustine

Weekday Service: 18 round trips

Peak Trainsets/Crews: 4

Peak Car Requirement: 8

**The information below does not account for interfacing with transit modes**

Estimated Weekday Passenger Trips (Ridership 2015)

Southeast Corridor: 4,814 trips

The biggest thing I see is instead of a train every hour off-peak, we're down to 7 trains a weekday (instead of 18) and no weekend service. Expect low ridership numbers.

[Tacachale]

Yeah. It's going to need at least SunRail's schedule to be successful

[marty904]

Hmm, sounds an awful lot like another commuter system that we already have... Only running during peak hours, in the morning, lunch and evening time... Assuming not running on the weekends.  WTH? Why do we keep shooting ourselves in the (tourism) foot by not running our transportation systems on the weekends???  I'm sure that St. Augustinians would come to Jax a lot more often if they could ride the rail in, just like a lot of us would go to St Augustine more frequently... I just don't get it!

[thelakelander]

I'll be interested to see the study results. Unfortunately, Sunrail averages around the same amount of weekday ridership as the Skyway does right now. BRT will serve the same corridor between DT and Avenues Mall with 10-15 minute headways, 7 days a week. If AAF (assuming headways are similar to the Orlando-Miami link) or Amtrak comes to the FEC corridor in upcoming years, we may be better off lobbying to get stations at the JRTC and St. Augustine. In such a scenario, the only area on the FEC corridor not covered with more frequent transit will be Northern St. Johns County. However, I seriously doubt that sprawled out area will generate significant ridership or anything that the Sunshine Bus can't handle. With all of this in mind, although FEC is clearly more receptive to commuter rail than CSX, seems like the CSX A, between DT and Clay County may be the local corridor with the most potential for commuter rail.

[simms3]

I predict almost no ridership on this route (more ridership on the existing DT Skyway seems more logical).  Traffic and parking are just not bad enough, and are not hassles on the First Coast.  Residential density is low and commuter rail doesn't spur residential TOD like other forms of rail do.  30/60 minute headways are not convenient, even for organized planners, which most of us are not.  For actual commuting, the rail line is too far from a residential base, which is a base that actually sends most commuters down JTB or elsewhere besides downtown.

Then there is the whole issue with the study to begin with.  What are they going to discover that has materially changed since the study 7 years ago, and how much is it going to cost to discover these items?

The one major plus I see with commuter rail is the fact that it can use FEC tracks and already has a river crossing as a result.  Light rail/streetcar does not.

[spuwho]

Based on todays view, yes the route doesnt look viable. But enforce TOD zoning on the route for 25 years with downtown development and it will be viable.

You have to make the commitment first and then follow it up with complementary planning.

If you wait for COJ to develop the planning in absence of the service, it will never happen, ever.

[ProjectMaximus]

hmmm...I remember this exact same "study" when I first joined metrojacksonville seven years ago. I was very excited back then...

Based on todays view, yes the route doesnt look viable. But enforce TOD zoning on the route for 25 years with downtown development and it will be viable.

You have to make the commitment first and then follow it up with complementary planning.

If you wait for COJ to develop the planning in absence of the service, it will never happen, ever.

Great point.

[thelakelander]

You're not going to get much TOD running a commuter rail train every three or four hours for five days a week. If we really want TOD, we can experiement with it now around the Skyway's stations.

[spuwho]

You're not going to get much TOD running a commuter rail train every three or four hours for five days a week. If we really want TOD, we can experiement with it now around the Skyway's stations.

I agree, but you have to start somewhere.  My point is until you start the service, no one will do the TOD at all. And complementary doesn't necessarily mean right by a station. It can mean bus/streetcar routes that can feed it from higher density areas.

And no need to experiment, TOD works, Skyway needs it as well.

You guys are thinking the demand has to come first, then the route can exist. I am saying the route has to exist so that demand can be planned for.

[ProjectMaximus]

You're not going to get much TOD running a commuter rail train every three or four hours for five days a week. If we really want TOD, we can experiement with it now around the Skyway's stations.

There seemed to be TOD/TAD with Sunrail and Metrorail in Austin. I know your point is it needs to run much more frequently, but I agree with Spuwho that there needs to be a will to create the service to attract TOD, not waiting for the development to come to then decide to build the transit. As you know very well, that will never happen.

It would have been interesting if JTA or COJ had developed mixed use sites surrounding the stations as part of the original expansion. AAF style. Might have made everything more successful, in terms of revenue AND ridership. And a bit easier to rationalize further extensions.

[thelakelander]

You're not going to get much TOD running a commuter rail train every three or four hours for five days a week. If we really want TOD, we can experiement with it now around the Skyway's stations.

There seemed to be TOD/TAD with Sunrail and Metrorail in Austin. I know your point is it needs to run much more frequently, but I agree with Spuwho that there needs to be a will to create the service to attract TOD, not waiting for the development to come to then decide to build the transit. As you know very well, that will never happen.

I doubt we'd ever get federal funding anyway but there's a big difference in service frequencies and density of the areas immediately served. Sunrail could be improved with better frequencies but trains do run every half hour during peak with two mid-day trains....or 18 trips each way, each day. With that in mind, serving a population more than twice the size of NE Florida, that 30-mile system currently averages a little over 4k riders a day.....same as the 2.5-mile Skyway.

Austin's CapitalMetro is a DMU that runs every 30 minutes peak and 60 minutes off peak. It also runs on the weekends. Roughly 24 trips each way per weekday. It gets less than 3,000 riders a day but was pretty cheap to implement. To get Sunrail up and running, $1 billion was spent.

If Jax truly wants to get something started that attracts TOD, something much shorter, serving a denser area of the community with high frequency service and coordinated land use and zoning policies are in order. The cheapest option would be using the Skyway since it already exists, is high frequency, and half the stations are surrounded by surface parking lots and dirt already owned by JTA.

I'm the biggest transit advocate around but I'm a true believer in not throwing money after things with horrible ROI...even if it's public money. Doing such, we only hurt ourselves in future transit discussions (ex. like what the Skyway has done to transit investment in Jax over the last 20 years).

It would have been interesting if JTA or COJ had developed mixed use sites surrounding the stations as part of the original expansion. AAF style. Might have made everything more successful, in terms of revenue AND ridership. And a bit easier to rationalize further extensions.

They can try this now with the Skyway. If they can't pull it off in and around DT Jax, then they won't be able to do it in the burbs.

[thelakelander]

You're not going to get much TOD running a commuter rail train every three or four hours for five days a week. If we really want TOD, we can experiement with it now around the Skyway's stations.

I agree, but you have to start somewhere.  My point is until you start the service, no one will do the TOD at all. And complementary doesn't necessarily mean right by a station. It can mean bus/streetcar routes that can feed it from higher density areas.

In general, I agree. Except we started in 1989 but screwed ourselves so bad with route planning, implementation, and ignoring the importance of complementing land use and zoning practices that it set transit expansion and investment back in this town for decades. That's what we need to avoid and that's what my basic viewpoint is centered around.

And no need to experiment, TOD works, Skyway needs it as well.

Yes, TOD works but we'd had no success with it here for obvious reasons. At this point, we have not effectively addressed those reasons. 

You guys are thinking the demand has to come first, then the route can exist. I am saying the route has to exist so that demand can be planned for.

No. I'm talking about burning money to the point where it hurts overall future investment and support in transit locally as a whole.  If we have $400- $500 million to spend on fix transit, I'm not sure limited weekday service commuter rail is the best way to go. In our political environment, it is imperative that all initial projects are a success in terms of ridership and TOD, right from the start.

[ProjectMaximus]

Ennis, all that you say makes sense. I think you're just focused more on reality and I was simply praising the notion of potentially putting the horse before the cart, as it should be.