Laura Street Trio in Trouble? Updated status of six key Downtown projects

[Captain Zissou]

^You guys know it's spelled capital, right?

[thelakelander]

I'm not sure that Tallahassee would be willing to allow the capitol to be moved to downtown Jax....

Even if they did, I'm sure Tampa, Orlando and Miami would put up a good fight to land it as well....no matter how much money Khan and Atkins brings to the table.

[tufsu1]

^ and even then, the capitol is just the physical buildings....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_State_Capitol

Tallahassee itself is Florida's capital city

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capitals_in_the_United_States

[jcjohnpaint]

Any update on the meeting?

So.... any updates?

[sschwartz2929]

From the Jax Daily Record:
SouthEast principal Steve Atkins said he prefers to build a structure at 28 W. Forsyth St. The city-owned surface lot there has an assessed value of $940,000, according to the Duval County Property Appraiser's website.

Atkins said a proposal he's preparing to provide the DIA would be for a design-build done entirely by his team that would cost $12.5 million to $15 million. It would include 600-700 spots and have ground-level retail. Revenue sharing is a possibility, Atkins said.

A deal structured that way would require the city to give the site to the developer.

The developers also want an incentive commonly offered to new construction projects. REV grants allow developers to recoup a portion of the incremental increase in value on the property.

The grant being discussed for the Laura Street Trio/Barnett Bank project would cover 75 percent of the increased value over 20 years. A waiver by City Council is required because it goes above the 50 percent, 10-year mark.

The grant would come to about $2.6 million, according to project documents.

[Downtown Objective]

So Atkin's group is building the garage, which will not be competitively bid, and owned by the City?  That estimate makes it seem like the cost per spot is $20K+

[Downtown Objective]

I think thats accurate, ccm.  Although it was important for the DIA to see the faces in the actual physical room.  To Curry's credit he is surrounded by famous multi taskers.

Hopefully someone will take the lead on this so that we don't strike out with three national investment groups in the space of 15 months.  It would be nice to have a stream of investment relationships that don't rely on the same team of failure responsible for the past 40 years of demolition and catastrophe.

I wish I could tell you how frustrating watching brilliant projects get ignored over the decades becomes..

Just an observation here, not a disagreement - the firms you've mentioned are some of the best in what they do.  If there's a deal to be had that makes a return worth investment, it will be done.  I don't disagree with capital pulling out because incentives are the backbone of a deal making sense financially; if that's what it came down to (tell me if I'm wrong).  Government is here to provide a stable and equitable place to do business, incentives are the cherry on top.  These firms are pressured to place money, so I would think they had other reservations & what was being discussed wasn't necessarily a home run. 

I'm just catching up on this thread, but great conversation!

[sschwartz2929]

So Atkin's group is building the garage, which will not be competitively bid, and owned by the City?  That estimate makes it seem like the cost per spot is $20K+

The way I read it the city gives Atkins the land. Atkins Develops at his cost of 12-15m for 700 spots and retail spaces. Then the city gives him Rev grants based on 75% of the property appreciation for 20 years. Atkins said he would be willing to discuss lot revenue sharing with the city. I assume that means that some of the profits generated by the lot could potentially go back to the city. All of this is according to the Daily Record. I know that they are working nonstop to make this a win win for everyone.

[Downtown Objective]

So Atkin's group is building the garage, which will not be competitively bid, and owned by the City?  That estimate makes it seem like the cost per spot is $20K+

The way I read it the city gives Atkins the land. Atkins Develops at his cost of 12-15m for 700 spots and retail spaces. Then the city gives him Rev grants based on 75% of the property appreciation for 20 years. Atkins said he would be willing to discuss lot revenue sharing with the city. I assume that means that some of the profits generated by the lot could potentially go back to the city. All of this is according to the Daily Record. I know that they are working nonstop to make this a win win for everyone.

Thanks - I was able to find the article.  That's worth $2.6MM... pretty big component not to come up in the initial meeting. 

[heights unknown]

I think thats accurate, ccm.  Although it was important for the DIA to see the faces in the actual physical room.  To Curry's credit he is surrounded by famous multi taskers.

Hopefully someone will take the lead on this so that we don't strike out with three national investment groups in the space of 15 months.  It would be nice to have a stream of investment relationships that don't rely on the same team of failure responsible for the past 40 years of demolition and catastrophe.

I wish I could tell you how frustrating watching brilliant projects get ignored over the decades becomes..

Just an observation here, not a disagreement - the firms you've mentioned are some of the best in what they do.  If there's a deal to be had that makes a return worth investment, it will be done.  I don't disagree with capital pulling out because incentives are the backbone of a deal making sense financially; if that's what it came down to (tell me if I'm wrong).  Government is here to provide a stable and equitable place to do business, incentives are the cherry on top.  These firms are pressured to place money, so I would think they had other reservations & what was being discussed wasn't necessarily a home run. 

I'm just catching up on this thread, but great conversation!

Thanks DO.  To be honest, we have an incredibly self sabotaging apparatus in our downtown redevelopment entities. Every developer who has dealt with the city would cite the government component to be the worst thing about the failed process.

Certainly if you would like some enlightenment as to how dysfunctional the interventions by the City are into development, have lunch with Alex Coley (or Steve Williams for that matter) or the handful of people who have managed to build downtown successfully downtown.

One of the first things that will shock you is how long its been since there has been an actual development downtown.  We went through the American High without a single downtown project outside of the Library, the two Courthouses and the Veterans Arena---in other words all tax funded projects.  Hal from The Metropolitan and John Rood from the Carling/11East are the only two private developers who got anything done, and all three projects were renovations, not new builds.

Certainly that alone should indicate how poisonous the multiple layers of numbskullery have been downtown for literally decades.

That "numbskullery" or DUMBskullery needs to end.

[heights unknown]

^You guys know it's spelled capital, right?

You beat me to the punch CZ; now I don't have to point that out. As an Administrator by trade, it really irks me when educated professionals get the spelling of that word wrong; especially when I see it on news casts, news networks, etc.

[whyisjohngalt]

The parking garage land should be sold to the developer or an RFP issued contingent on breaking ground.

How much did the garage on Bay St cost?

This is just a waste of time if the city isn't going to agree to the other terms anyways.

[whyisjohngalt]

That would make The Southeast Group look bad.
Like they're not an experienced developer or something.

[whyisjohngalt]

How much does it cost to get unwaivering support on this site anyways?  Surely it's more than a lunch.

Despite "overlooking" the cost of the parking garage - was it left off of the financing agreements as well?  What about the whole foreclosure issue - as an example of being poorly prepared ?  And lack of experience.  These are reasons for my concern and they've been posted.

What hasn't been posted is why the SEG should be supported other than they were vetted by some financial group under the assumption that the city/DIA would pay for about 15%ish and $12-15 million dollar parking garage would magically appear.

Of course I want something there but ever since acquiring the properties the SEG has been incompetent.

Are you surprised that the largest recent private development in dtjax  would take experience?  I don't know if there's more hubris on the side of the Atkin's guy or the side with the guy that believes their personal relationship is worth overlooking the facts.

Just do like a Pro / Con list, man.  We've asked you for your Pro reasons but instead we've seem to create a list supporting Kahn.

[CCMjax]

How much does it cost to get unwaivering support on this site anyways?  Surely it's more than a lunch.

Despite "overlooking" the cost of the parking garage - was it left off of the financing agreements as well?  What about the whole foreclosure issue - as an example of being poorly prepared ?  And lack of experience.  These are reasons for my concern and they've been posted.

What hasn't been posted is why the SEG should be supported other than they were vetted by some financial group under the assumption that the city/DIA would pay for about 15%ish and $12-15 million dollar parking garage would magically appear.

Of course I want something there but ever since acquiring the properties the SEG has been incompetent.

Are you surprised that the largest recent private development in dtjax  would take experience?  I don't know if there's more hubris on the side of the Atkin's guy or the side with the guy that believes their personal relationship is worth overlooking the facts.

Just do like a Pro / Con list, man.  We've asked you for your Pro reasons but instead we've seem to create a list supporting Kahn.

It is worth supporting SEG because they have had the most comprehensive and thoughtful plan for revitalizing that block than anyone else that has stepped to the plate.  They may not have deserved this level of support before they gained the support of larger "outside of jax" national banks and investment firms but now they do.  That means these partnering companies truly believe in this project.  Atkins does not appear to have experience with this exact type of project but does with property investment and historical structures in general, and his partners have more than enough experience, which is why he has partnered with them.  The last hurdle seems to be the City of Jacksonville and people like you.  And the COJ appears to be working harder at getting this done than ever before, that may be all it takes.  No investors have wanted to be pioneers when it comes to downtown Jax and it seems like a lot of it has to do with the layers of barriers and disorganization within the COJ.  It's a culture that needs to change but does not change over night.  There has been Hallmark with the Brooklyn developments but nothing in the heart of downtown.  So when one comes along that now has serious financial backing and public support, it is important to continue that support. 

Another thing, other projects like the Landing and Khan's plans have produced a lot of debate on the use of space, and the plans produced haven't felt 100% right yet to everyone.  There really is no debate on the uses for this project and tenants have already been lined up for several of the spaces.  It's pretty straight forward and I think most everyone agrees the plan is great for the location.  It needs to get done the way they have planned, everyone knows that.

The parking garage was always a question mark and it is not as if it was overlooked or somehow missed in the plans.  They have been discussing the parking garage for years, it came up in the original plan.  I believe a year or two back the idea was for the city to pay for the garage, and that was one of the things that may have stalled the project.  In my opinion, it would be a good deal for the city even if they did have to contribute 12-13 mil for the garage plus the other $8 mil.  Look around the country, $20 mil for a huge downtown revitilization in public money is not that much.  Jax can come up with the money if they think it is important enough, and they certainly could come up with $8 mil and the motivation to give the plot of land to SEG to develop the garage on their own.  I really don't see the city losing in the long run on this one if their investment is incremental throughout construction.