Folio's counter to EverBank and Shad Khan

[BridgeTroll]

I still stand by the article's intent and other people's likely similar view that no matter how awesome for Jags fans these humongous screens are and how much better they make people's daily lives, it's a fuckin' pathetic way to spend public money.

Of all the less pathetic things public money could have been spent on, even slightly more related to tourism and all, considering it was a bed tax that was just squandered.

Only in an urban oriented forum for Jacksonville people would an apparent majority of posters be ok with this.  That's only supposed to sound obviously offensive.

Judging from this whole chain of events and sentiment on these very boards, when Shad Khan comes to you all, the taxpayers in oh, 2 years or so, asking for a new stadium for only a billy, I'm sure he thinks it won't be "too" difficult to pull it out of all you dupes.  This was a test case and you failed and he passed.

This is why the 49'ers are now in Santa Clara.  They moved their headquarters there years ago and now the stadium is part of the same complex.  They are San Francisco in name only.  The Giants would have moved also but... wha?  A new stadium was built for them.  The Raiders are about to move from across the bay... and dont be surprised if the A's are next... San Jose A's anyone?

This WAS a test case... and you PASSED.  A public/private partnership that benefits more than just Khan...

[edjax]

I still stand by the article's intent and other people's likely similar view that no matter how awesome for Jags fans these humongous screens are and how much better they make people's daily lives, it's a fuckin' pathetic way to spend public money.

Of all the less pathetic things public money could have been spent on, even slightly more related to tourism and all, considering it was a bed tax that was just squandered.

Only in an urban oriented forum for Jacksonville people would an apparent majority of posters be ok with this.  That's only supposed to sound obviously offensive.


Judging from this whole chain of events and sentiment on these very boards, when Shad Khan comes to you all, the taxpayers in oh, 2 years or so, asking for a new stadium for only a billy, I'm sure he thinks it won't be "too" difficult to pull it out of all you dupes.  This was a test case and you failed and he passed.

This is why the 49'ers are now in Santa Clara.  They moved their headquarters there years ago and now the stadium is part of the same complex.  They are San Francisco in name only.  The Giants would have moved also but... wha?  A new stadium was built for them.  The Raiders are about to move from across the bay... and dont be surprised if the A's are next... San Jose A's anyone?

This WAS a test case... and you PASSED.  A public/private partnership that benefits more than just Khan...

Actually the Giants stadium was privately built.  The city did however give them a $10 million tax abatement and also paid for $80 million in surrounding infrastructure to accommodate the new stadium.  I have read a few articles though that as the stadium ages and needs some upgrading, etc there is a good chance the taxpayers could end up paying for some of those upgrades.

[BridgeTroll]

Perhaps I missed the privately funded and built part but $100 million in Infrastructure is no small amount... Stadium upgrades by taxpayers?  Sounds just like EverBank to me.  But it really doesnt matter.  There are ALWAYS "other ways" to spend some chunk of money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Park

Looks to me like taxpayers approved $357mil... 

[TheCat]

Bridgetroll, you're implying that San Francisco is worst off as a result of the move? Are they? A move of a team doesn't immediately imply a net negative for a city does it?

If the Jaguars moved (may God  or Ron Chamblin forbid it) how would it impact our city? It could be the single worst thing to happen to us or it could free up many millions of dollars and empower other projects.

We should feel okay with discussing the cost of the stadium and the value of the Jaguars. If we're not allowed that introspection as a population let's just give up.

If it turns out that the Jaguars cost the city a whole lot more than we really get back...that's okay.  That could be an expense we all find worthy of our tax dollars. Or, vice versa, if we end up being able to evidentially see how much value a Jaguar presence and a stadium investment brings to our borders then we will all know that the costs are worth it. Plus, we'll know where the line from benefit to expense exist.

I'm just a little loss, still, at comments that say "get over it" or "stop whining". I think comments like that encourage ignorance and aren't really productive.

I don't think anyone would be upset if we did another round of investigating how the court house ended up costing Jacksonville way more than it should have.

Edited for spelling errors

[BridgeTroll]

You would have to ask all of the residents of SF if it is better that the Niners now reside in the south bay... not just Simms.  Simms is clearly in the "pathetic waste of money " camp.  I'm just saying no matter what the city project or spending proposal you will have people who think "X is a big waste of money"  For X substitute stadium, road, streetcar,  courthouse, convention center, aquarium, or city park.

My particular view is the boards are clearly not just for football but for ALL activities at the stadium... Major league cities have major league multi function stadiums.  Perhaps SF being the city it is... does not need a stadium like Everbank... I submit in Jacksonville it brings events and people to town who would otherwise never come to Jacksonville... which is probably a plus...

[edjax]

Whether the Niners decision to leave has impacted SF is irrelevant to Jax as I am going to make a wild guess that SF has a bit more to offer than Jax so a major sports team would have less of an impact in a city such as Sf in comparison to Jax.

[edjax]

plus San Francisco got 10 million dollars a year lease for the stadium, plus a couple of million dollars annually from the sales tax on ticket sales.

San Fran gets 10m annual in lease?  I have read the Giants pay an annual lease of $1.2m to the SF Port Commission.

[JeffreyS]

I still stand by the article's intent and other people's likely similar view that no matter how awesome for Jags fans these humongous screens are and how much better they make people's daily lives, it's a fuckin' pathetic way to spend public money.

Of all the less pathetic things public money could have been spent on, even slightly more related to tourism and all, considering it was a bed tax that was just squandered.

Only in an urban oriented forum for Jacksonville people would an apparent majority of posters be ok with this.  That's only supposed to sound obviously offensive.

Judging from this whole chain of events and sentiment on these very boards, when Shad Khan comes to you all, the taxpayers in oh, 2 years or so, asking for a new stadium for only a billy, I'm sure he thinks it won't be "too" difficult to pull it out of all you dupes.  This was a test case and you failed and he passed.

You are one of my favorite posters.  You bring better info than anyone IMO short of Lakelander.  So I am inclined to forgive you on this opinion where clearly your brain crapped the bed.

[duvaldude08]

I just think that the people who live here, seriously like having the team, apparently don't mind spending the money, and that it raises the quality of life for them in a very very meaningful way.

If that is true, why attack the thing that people really like about their city, instead of attacking the do nothings who refuse to also fund the things that the city needs?

Its like beating up your more attractive cousin because your grandfather likes them better.

You know stephen, I have strayed away from commenting on this thread because of these comments are ridiculos, but what you just stated is EXACTLY what Ive been thinking. Its like were beating up Shad Khan and the Jags because our city leadership are failures. That doesnt make sense. This is a Jacksonville problem, not a Shad Khan or Jaguar problem. Our crappy leadership goes back before we even got an NFL team. This city has been mismanaged for decades.

[simms3]

Perhaps I missed the privately funded and built part but $100 million in Infrastructure is no small amount... Stadium upgrades by taxpayers?  Sounds just like EverBank to me.  But it really doesnt matter.  There are ALWAYS "other ways" to spend some chunk of money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Park

Looks to me like taxpayers approved $357mil... 

No.

Pretty familiar with this deal and the Warriors deal, which is ongoing.  $10MM tax abatement is only a couple of years of abatement, if you know anything about SF real estate (there is land trading here for close to $250MM an acre right now), and AT&T Park sits on a decent sized parcel, being that it is a stadium and all.

Also, $80MM was not for the stadium itself.  The city used the opportunity of the stadium locating there to build up the neighborhood, which is now known as South Beach and China Basin, across from the exploding Mission Bay neighborhood (SF's answer to Cambridge, MA) right now.  The money spent included a stop on a new LRT line that connected the city's southern neighborhoods (such as Hunter's Point, Visitacion Valley, Dogpatch, Mission Bay, China Basin, and South Beach) with the financial district and the other ~6 lines in the Muni Metro system, which all converge along 5 stations on the Market St Spine, bring 200,000+ people a day to downtown.

Now, the "Central Subway", a $1.8Bn Muni Metro expansion, will tie into that LRT extension that was built "for" (but not really) AT&T Park, and will provide all Muni riders more direct access to the 4th St Caltrain station, which is the main hub for SF's commuter rail (eventually that will move closer into the financial district when they complete electrification of that whole system and find funding to bring it all into the new Transbay Terminal, now UC about 1.5 miles away).  BART will also be directly tied in.

I could go on, but I just arrived from the airport and happened to take some iPhone pics while stuck in traffic.  Here is the area that the $80MM infrastructure improvements were made for.













These are a bit older and taken on a Sunday evening last spring, but the "South Beach"/SoMa area around the ballpark also includes lots of older rehabbed buildings commanding top dollar rents and hosting lots of startups and tech firms:















The upper/residential end of Mission Bay UC at the time:





Lastly, the stadium costs $357MM to build, completely privately financed.  There was no "voter approval" to build it.  Similarly, the Warriors are building a roughly $600MM arena now in Mission Bay.  Like AT&T Park, they were going to build it on a derelict Pier that the city was going to give them, and spend $130MM to refurbish the pier to support uses.  That number ballooned and the NIMBYs came out in full force so they moved about 3/4 of a mile south to Mission Bay.  Again, privately financed.  It will include office and retail/entertainment uses.

FTR, AT&T Park is one of the best baseball stadiums in the country, probably top 3.  It's literally right in the thick of things and there are at least 30-40 bars within a quarter mile walking distance, plus restaurants, and clubs.  It's up there with Fenway and Wrigley Park for plain ol' fantastically located and well built baseball parks with tons of shit to do all around.  Substitute neighboring rooftop bleachers at Wrigley (sadly possibly going away there) for McCovey Cove, an inlet where people kayak and boat and watch the game from the water.

Nobody in SF is mourning the "loss" of the Niners, because it isn't a loss.  Santa Clara County is paying lots of money for that stadium (voter approved), and frankly, there is almost "too much" to do in the city and almost nothing to do down there, so it just evens things out, ever so slightly.

I think football stadiums belong in the suburbs where you can provide surface parking and tailgate areas.  And I think baseball stadiums and arenas belong in the city.  To that end, the Bay Area gets it mostly right.  When the SuperBowl comes in 2016, visitors, especially those that are higher end, will either be in Palo Alto (which is small and limited) or in SF, not in San Jose.  The game will be in San Jose, but the actual Superbowl and all that it entails will happen in SF.

I would say while we have our battles over here (ultra ultra ultra left AND actually a Democracy where every crazy and every NIMBY gets to vote about every fuckin thing), this is a city that is probably the least hypocritical in the country, and puts its money where its mouth is.

I just wish Jax used bed tax money for tourist things, at minimum, not for oversized score boards.  But I guess it, too, is putting its money where its mouth is since apparently this the kind of thing everyone wants!!  Even the "urbanites" on this urban-oriented web site.

[KenFSU]

^ The vast majority goes to maintaining the sports complex (33% of the bed tax) and paying interest on the bonds that financed the construction of the stadium (33%). Of that remaining third, roughly 70% goes to Visit Jacksonville, for marketing and promotion of the city. From my understanding, the rest typically goes toward staffing and administrative expenses for the Tourist Development Council, and for grants for various sporting events, festivals, and concerts that will potentially bring tourism to Jacksonville. I believe that specific examples include the Florida-Florida State baseball game, Florida-Georgia football, the Gator Bowl, the ACC Championship game, the NCAA basketball tournament, Super Bowl XXXIX, the Mega Super Giant Country Fest, etc.

Per the Jax Daily Record, the Florida Country Superfest received a $200,000 bed tax grant as incentive to hold the show at Everbank.

Next year, that grant will be cut to $100,000, which may jeopardize the show's potential return to Jacksonville.

When the $100,000 grant for the second Superfest was proposed, City Council member Richard Clark said it was a "perfect model" for the tourism council.

"Year one, we take a risk; year two, we back down a sizable chunk; year three, they're out of TDC," he said.

[TheCat]

Quote from: KenFSU on August 13, 2014, 12:23:22 PM

^ The vast majority goes to maintaining the sports complex (33% of the bed tax) and paying interest on the bonds that financed the construction of the stadium (33%). Of that remaining third, roughly 70% goes to Visit Jacksonville, for marketing and promotion of the city. From my understanding, the rest typically goes toward staffing and administrative expenses for the Tourist Development Council, and for grants for various sporting events, festivals, and concerts that will potentially bring tourism to Jacksonville. I believe that specific examples include the Florida-Florida State baseball game, Florida-Georgia football, the Gator Bowl, the ACC Championship game, the NCAA basketball tournament, Super Bowl XXXIX, the Mega Super Giant Country Fest, etc.

I think this is incorrect. 2/3 of the bed taxes go to the stadium or 66 percent. When the 2 penny sales tax finished paying off the bond for the convention center that money was then redirected to fund stadium maintenance, which was then used to finance the scoreboards.

I haven't seen the terms of the bond for the scoreboard but it's probably fairly safe to say we are on the hook for about 3 million a year for 30 years.

If this is accurate we're paying about $250,000 per month for the largest scoreboard in the world.

[Tacachale]

^Ken's correct. Of the 6% bed tax, 2% goes to the capital improvement fund, 2% goes to debt service for the bonds that built Everbank Field, and the other 2% goes to the tourism promotion fund. The capital improvement fund is tied to the stadium district, with the stadium, Arena, and Baseball Grounds being named specifically.

Prior to 2009, there was no capital improvement fund in the bed tax; that pot of money was often considered for the convention center. The Better Jacksonville Plan had its own maintenance fund for those buildings, which seems to have been re-appropriated before the bed tax was restructured.

[TheCat]

So, the question is what percentage of the capital improvement fund will now service debt for the scoreboard?

And, we have a three to four year record to see how the capital improvement fund was actually spent prior to the scoreboards.

I'm assuming visit Jacksonville is not in charge of capital improvement fund...?

Either way, the stadium receives more than one-third of the available bed tax dollars.

[jaxjaguar]

Considering the Stadium is the biggest attraction / venue we have downtown, I'm ok with that.

Monster Jam, MotoX, Paintball tourneys, Soccer games, Gator Bowl, FL vs GA, the corporate events, movie nights that were recently announced, Country Music Fest (assuming the city doesn't screw it up and lose it) and who know's what else is in the works.... It's better to do one thing really good than a bunch of crappy things.