Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?

[JaxNole]

I am assuming of course, that we desire a vibrant city core, and guide my opinions to this end.  And yes, the FT's do engage in a measure of parasitic activity, sucking customers from a customer base as cultivated by the nearby B & M's restaurants.  Is this fair?  There must be a bit of unfairness in the core at least, although not so much in the suburbs, where there are more potential customers compared to the current weakened, partially desolate core. 

I frequented the food trucks while working at EverBank Center. I also ate at a number of B&Ms. I chose the food trucks because I can go to a Quizno's or Subway anywhere else in Jacksonville and their offerings are not unique.

Just because the Quizno's franchisee paid thousands to franchise and operate under the Quizno's business model does not mean competition should be stifled as a result of perceived unfairness. No food truck I've handed cash to served a product similar to Quizno's or other B&Ms.

If anything, the food trucks encouraged my suburban former colleagues to leave the office, on foot (thereby increasing foot traffic) to try the different options. Most were under the impression that walking around Downtown, regardless of time of day, was dangerous. The food trucks were the catalyst in changing their negative perceptions of Downtown, contributing to thriving business ventures' bottom lines.

[tufsu1]

In Tampa, they hold a monthly Mayor's Food Truck Rally downtown.  The events are well publicized and are often so busy that b&m establishments get increased business.  Perhaps this is a solution to the concern about the occasional food truck days at Hemming Plaza.

That said, I do somewhat understand the competition concern.  It is pretty common for shopping centers to have specific no-compete clauses for their leases.  So, for example, there wouldn't be 3 froyo places in the same strip.  The same has been and could be done in regards to food trucks. 

For example, the Pink Cupcake truck was out at Atlantic/Kernan (w/ Happy Grilled Cheese) on Saturday.  But they can't go where Happy Grilled Cheese goes on Sunday because that shopping center already has a bakery and their agreement with Sleiman doesn't allow it.   

[BridgeTroll]

In Tampa, they hold a monthly Mayor's Food Truck Rally downtown.  The events are well publicized and are often so busy that b&m establishments get increased business.  Perhaps this is a solution to the concern about the occasional food truck days at Hemming Plaza.

That said, I do somewhat understand the competition concern.  It is pretty common for shopping centers to have specific no-compete clauses for their leases.  So, for example, there wouldn't be 3 froyo places in the same strip.  The same has been and could be done in regards to food trucks. 

For example, the Pink Cupcake truck was out at Atlantic/Kernan (w/ Happy Grilled Cheese) on Saturday.  But they can't go where Happy Grilled Cheese goes on Sunday because that shopping center already has a bakery and their agreement with Sleiman doesn't allow it.   

Those are private agreements?  Not laws coming from city hall?

[thelakelander]

Correct.

[Ocklawaha]

IDEA!

Food Truckies and their owners should (Considering their likely to pass some antibusiness legislation anyway... We are all just noise after all) should petition that they be allowed at ALL BRT and fixed transit station areas. The Park and Ride at JTB, the downtown Rosa Parks and the Skyway at Jax Terminal, Kings Avenue, as well as the Avenue's Walk station, San Marco, Riverplace, and Central and Jefferson Stations.

[thelakelander]

This came up in a conversation at JTA the other week. I believe Portland is an example of a city that allows trucks to set up shop at their transit stations. When you think about it, that's a great amenity for transit users and a cheap way to encourage more riders to use existing transit facilities and services.

[thelakelander]

Jim Bailey: Food trucks help Downtown when handled well

Two weeks ago, we were in a Downtown Investment Authority meeting when our Chief Executive Officer Aundra Wallace said he needed to leave by 3 p.m. because of the meeting called by Council member Brown to discuss food trucks.

We immediately took a stance and voted in support of food trucks, with a caveat — when and where appropriate.

My first reaction was concern for what is commonly called the bricks-and-mortar restaurants and for the business owners who have been paying their dues and barely seeing a return on their investments in Downtown.

My second thought was why would we want to try to build a vibrant, exciting place without food trucks? They are fun, creative and useful.

But like water taxis, our first concern should be with our customers' experience.

Can we utilize both to create an environment that will ensure they leave with a positive experience, have a variety of options and want to return for more?

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=542416

[Ajax]

Actually, on this issue, I've not given a thought to my own business, as we are much less vulnerable to the impact of FT's as a consequence of being able to offer much more .. and differently -- tables inside and out, wi-fi, books, ambience, music, and me   My concern, and I've stressed this repeatedly in my writing, is the long-term health of the core .... the effect of any legislation on the speed at which the core can proceed to vibrancy. 

My perspective is shaped by my perception of the overall economic scenario.  I am not overly concerned about my own business, as I have been able to compete well with competition as a consequence of my being able to make decisions allowing me continual growth for almost 40 years, while most of my competitors have gone under.  I have bought out at least seven book stores in the past ten years.  The conclusion by some, that my concern is personal, that my concern is only for my own business, is only a consequence the insertion of a component into the mix which has no validity at all.  My concern is for the existing B & M restaurants that "do not" have a broad mix to offer - such as books, a bookstore ambience, wi-fi, music etc.  These places have for the most part, only food. 

Ron, please try and step back from your argument for a moment and read the quote from you that I've posted above.  These features that you offer at your bookstore and cafe are exactly why B&Ms have the ability to compete with the FTs.  FTs don't have these advantages, but they offer something different.  And quite frankly, Subway shouldn't be able to just hang up a Subway sign and have people flock to their shop - they should have to offer something to earn that business. 

If there aren't food trucks downtown, that doesn't mean that I'm suddenly going to want to have a sandwich from Subway.  It means that I'll probably bring my lunch with me to work, stay at my desk and eat lunch, and buy a book on Amazon.com, instead of walking past your bookstore on the way back from a FT and deciding to walk inside and see what new books have come in. 

[BridgeTroll]

Jim Bailey: Food trucks help Downtown when handled well

Two weeks ago, we were in a Downtown Investment Authority meeting when our Chief Executive Officer Aundra Wallace said he needed to leave by 3 p.m. because of the meeting called by Council member Brown to discuss food trucks.

We immediately took a stance and voted in support of food trucks, with a caveat — when and where appropriate.

My first reaction was concern for what is commonly called the bricks-and-mortar restaurants and for the business owners who have been paying their dues and barely seeing a return on their investments in Downtown.

My second thought was why would we want to try to build a vibrant, exciting place without food trucks? They are fun, creative and useful.

But like water taxis, our first concern should be with our customers' experience.

Can we utilize both to create an environment that will ensure they leave with a positive experience, have a variety of options and want to return for more?

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=542416

Perhaps they should consider regulating Food Boats also...   

[TheCat]

My perspective is shaped by my perception of the overall economic scenario.  I am not overly concerned about my own business, as I have been able to compete well with competition as a consequence of my being able to make decisions allowing me continual growth for almost 40 years, while most of my competitors have gone under.  I have bought out at least seven book stores in the past ten years.  The conclusion by some, that my concern is personal, that my concern is only for my own business, is only a consequence the insertion of a component into the mix which has no validity at all.  My concern is for the existing B & M restaurants that "do not" have a broad mix to offer - such as books, a bookstore ambience, wi-fi, music etc.  These places have for the most part, only food. 

Wow, exactly! Ron, it's like you are playing chess with your self. Good counter to everything else you have said. I'm blown away. 

Instead of devoting your energy to prohibiting food trucks why not devote your energy to making sure BM's learn to magnify the attributes FT's don't inherently have, like seating...or bathrooms...or air conditioning. Obviously, competing on food quality is too difficult for many downtown restaurants, which is why this sort of legislation is necessary?

[ronchamblin]

Jim Bailey's article was interesting, as it attempted to focus on the primary objectives necessary for productive dialogue.  I've attempted so far in the discussion, to relate what I consider to the be ultimate objectives affecting any legislative decisions. My intention has been to focus on the food truck issue primarily as it affects the city core, and not so much as it affects the outlying areas, because the core is more sensitive .. fragile..  to anything, whether legislation or economic injections or removals.

This discussion reminds me to the bumper stickers offering the term "PRO-LIFE", which automatically suggests that those who have opinions favoring abortion are "PRO-DEATH".  This makes me want to have a sticker saying "PRO-DEATH".  How can a sane individual be against LIFE ... or really want DEATH?  The sticker is of course nonsense, and suggests a slight shift to idiocy by those who encourage or display them. 

Just as the abortion issue deserves greater depth of communication than the bumper sticker, the food truck issue deserves more than saying that some want to "KILL THE FOOD TRUCKS".  Nobody wants to kill all the food trucks, but only some of them, some of the time, and in some places.    

Why should one oppose these trucks when they add good food variety, convenience, interest, and color to an area -- along with drawing people into an area who might otherwise not come?  From the beginning of this discussion, my thinking has evolved somewhat, as I've digested good points offered by others.  We all change our thinking via discussions.  If we do not, then either we are dead right "all" of the time, which is impossible, or we are simply too bullheaded to listen to what others have said.

To restrict food trucks carelessly and excessively is to destroy an important segment of the natural dynamics of market driven forces which are at the heart of any economy .. at the heart of any community.  If the idea of banning or restricting food trucks is introduced in the first place -- why is it introduced? 

We are talking about limiting something which is natural to the economic environment, something that shapes the community according to the wishes and needs of the consumers in the community. So why would anyone wish to limit or restrict these food trucks, which provide good services, and meet the needs of the customers?

Total freedom for anything .... any system .... is good and productive, as it approaches the natural, and supposes that at work are the forces born as a consequence of the reality of whatever is being tested.  Freedom .. that beautiful word. 

Restriction .... control.... limitation .... Who is to limit or control....  and why?  Money perhaps?  Survival? Fear?  The unknown?

Or perhaps control, restriction, or limitation is the result of a community's recognition and acceptance of ultimate goals affecting all citizens over the long haul -- and that a measure of control or limitations to total freedom is needed to ensure the achievement of those goals.  It's called being prudent, using self-discipline in the immediate, to achieve quality and important objectives over the long haul. .... some rambling thoughts before work this morning .... 

Our objective always, and as related especially to our city core, should be to make decisions against immediate gratification, profits, or false and temporary vibrancy, especially if these decisions have even a moderate probability of impairing our efforts to maximize its long-term journey to vibrancy.  We must make decisions which encourage, and even tend to force progress toward core vibrancy. 

Our decade-long condition of stagnation is a symptom of our tendency to focus and invest on projects not valid or ultimately important regarding the path to vibrancy and infill.

An integral part of vibrancy, and a requirement for it, is building infill .. as building infill relates to more people ... which is the essence of vibrancy.  More building infill implies more residents, workers, restaurants, businesses, entertainment, retail, offices .... all of these ultimately bringing more people.. more density... more vibrancy.. all bringing more health and dynamism to the city core.

Brick and mortar Restaurants provide infill for buildings in the city core, and therefore they provide an increment of vibrancy to the city core.  These establishments are always under pressure to improve via the competitive environment, and are ready, when the core population increases, to increase their hours of operation .... and thus bring more life to the city core. 

Although the brick and mortar restaurants offer sufficient service to satisfy the current demand as shaped by the existing population of core workers and residents, they cannot meet the demand during special events.  Therefore, there should be full freedom for food truck setups during the special events.

Art Walk, the Jazz Festival, One Spark ... Food Truck Rallies .... Music Festivals ... all are special events, which should be opportunities to invite and encourage the presence of food trucks throughout the city core -- because there is enough business for all restaurants -- food trucks and the brick and mortar.

The degree to which mostly unrestricted and daily food truck set-ups in the city core will bring visitors into the core is unknown, and can only be determined via experiment.  If the people influx caused by the food trucks is sufficient, and on a daily basis, then the negative impact upon the existing brick and mortar restaurants will not be an issue, and therefore very little control over the food trucks, as related to the brick and mortar restaurants, will be necessary.   

If legislation allows an excessive population of food trucks to set up daily in the core, without much control or restriction, and to set up within close proximity to the existing brick and mortar restaurants, and if there is very little people influx of visitors into the city core to buy from the food trucks, then we will probably see, one by one, the failure of some of the brick and mortar restaurants. Additionally, the worsening business climate for any brick and mortar restaurant, produced by the food trucks, if it indeed worsens, will demand that potential new restaurant entrepreneurs open in the suburbs .. not in the core, where we desperately need them.

We are set to make decisions that, while seeming to introduce vibrancy by giving food trucks in the core almost total freedom, just might introduce a dynamic which will destroy current and potential new brick and mortar restaurants .. will increase building vacancies, and thus ultimately impede or reverse progress toward vibrancy and infill.

We must guard against the "candy" for immediate enjoyment, because it just might ruin our teeth so that we cannot chew and enjoy the good food twenty years in the future.

Food trucks should be allowed into the city core, as their presence adds considerable variety and life to it.  However, the locations, as related to the existing, "and open", brick and mortar restaurants should be under a measure of control.  Food trucks should have unlimited access to the city core during any special events, and during "food truck rallies".

We do not want to cause, by any means, the exit of any existing tenants in the core, especially via careless and insensitive legislation.  The journey to vibrancy includes more filled buildings, not fewer. Common sense must allow us to use a limited control.  History has shown the necessity of having measured control over totally free and unfettered capitalism.  To ignore this is to invite regression and regret.   

[BridgeTroll]

Although the brick and mortar restaurants offer sufficient service to satisfy the current demand as shaped by the existing population of core workers and residents,

If the above assumption was true... the truck would have very few customers and would move elsewhere.  The truth is... the B/Ms do not provide "sufficient service" (whatever that is)... hence the trucks.

You have not told me where the "excessive trucks" are located.  I have a hard time just finding one... 

[thelakelander]

I still don't see this as a B&M vs FT issue. Both and more can easily co-exist in the core and the burbs, just like they do in nearly every other decent sized city across the country. Legislation shouldn't restrict, it should make things clear to all parties and facilitate growth (which results in additional foot traffic, activating dead spaces/parks, creating new B&Ms, new jobs, etc.).


http://somaleadership.org/2011/08/04/11th-%E2%80%9Cstreat%E2%80%9D-gourmet-food-court-proposal-isnt-quite-dead-yet/

Ron, Speaking of the core specifically, where do you believe a grouping of food trucks (like +5 in one spot...see sketch above as example) would be suitable to set up and serve on a regular basis (if it got to that point). Hemming?  JTA Skyway Stations (Central, Rosa Parks, Kings Avenue, etc.)? Broad Street/Courthouse Lawn? Main & Forsyth?

Why or why not?

You have not told me where the "excessive trucks" are located.  I have a hard time just finding one... 

I've never seen a food truck court in DT. But I believe DT would benefit from having one to activate one of its many dead blocks and public spaces. Right now, trucks are pretty scattered.

[ronchamblin]

Although the brick and mortar restaurants offer sufficient service to satisfy the current demand as shaped by the existing population of core workers and residents,

If the above assumption was true... the truck would have very few customers and would move elsewhere.  The truth is... the B/Ms do not provide "sufficient service" (whatever that is)... hence the trucks.

You have not told me where the "excessive trucks" are located.  I have a hard time just finding one... 

I think there is a balance now, as set by years of operation.  If the demand was not being met, more brick and mortar restaurants would open.  Stability ... survival, exists ...  thus building occupation is stable .. regression on the journey to vibrancy does not yet exist.

To allow uncontrolled food truck entry into the core, to allow a disruption upon the stability that has existed, "without" the assurance of increased populations of hungry individuals, is to invite the failure of brick and mortar restaurants, to produce more building vacancies, and to set back efforts to achieve vibrancy in the core. 

I realize that there have been very few, to zero, food trucks in the core.. yet.  The phrase "excessive food trucks", refers to the future possibility of allowing too many into the core, and too close to the existing brick and mortar restaurants -- which, as I've said before, might be a measure of betrayal by the city of the brick and mortar operations, since they opened up in the core with the expectation that competition would be limited by the surrounding architecture, the buildings in the environment, and the population of workers, residents, and visitors.

And as I've said before, "if" the presence of a somewhat generous supply of food trucks were allowed into the core, and "if" their presence produced sufficient "visitor customers" from the outside, then obviously any possible negative pressure upon the brick and mortar would tend to be negligible -- and thus, all would be good.  However, who knows now "if" the food truck presence will be of sufficient draw to produce enough customers for both the trucks and the brick and mortar?  Perhaps we are due for a period of experimentation on this issue.  Why not encourage food trucks into the core for a specific number of weeks or months, and see what happens? 

BTW, "if" food trucks ever enter the core in reasonable number and frequency, one issue might the the lack of public restrooms in the core.  The brick and mortars have so far, and for the most part, been accommodating the fact that there is a lack of restrooms.  My restaurant is used by individuals throughout the day, who never purchase anything.  We, and other brick and mortars, must keep the restrooms supplied and clean.  "If" food trucks are allowed increasingly into the area, the city might want to supply some kind of restroom facilities in the area, as the brick and mortars cannot be expected to meet the needs of any increased demand for restrooms, especially when that demand does not include purchases from inside the brick and mortar operation.

[ronchamblin]

I still don't see this as a B&M vs FT issue. Both and more can easily co-exist in the core and the burbs, just like they do in nearly every other decent sized city across the country. Legislation shouldn't restrict, it should make things clear to all parties and facilitate growth (which results in additional foot traffic, activating dead spaces/parks, creating new B&Ms, new jobs, etc.).


http://somaleadership.org/2011/08/04/11th-%E2%80%9Cstreat%E2%80%9D-gourmet-food-court-proposal-isnt-quite-dead-yet/

Ron, Speaking of the core specifically, where do you believe a grouping of food trucks (like +5 in one spot...see sketch above as example) would be suitable to set up and serve on a regular basis (if it got to that point). Hemming?  JTA Skyway Stations (Central, Rosa Parks, Kings Avenue, etc.)? Broad Street/Courthouse Lawn? Main & Forsyth?

Why or why not?

You have not told me where the "excessive trucks" are located.  I have a hard time just finding one... 

I've never seen a food truck court in DT. But I believe DT would benefit from having one to activate one of its many dead blocks and public spaces. Right now, trucks are pretty scattered.

I have to admit Lake, that the idea of a food truck park or block sounds almost exciting, and should be perhaps a goal to which we can strive. 

As to the location ... perhaps we can experiment with a place currently vacant as you've said, perhaps creating within it various enhancements ... and restrooms.  Let's think about a location.  Of course, we can always experiment ... even with Hemming .... perhaps having two or three there.  Of course that would I suspect be the end of the current hot dog places ... perhaps not. 

I just don't know at present.  Perhaps we can experiment with a location .... where? All might think about an area.

Still .. I wonder about the overall long-term effects on primary goals for the core.

Must get to work.