Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?

[ronchamblin]

There have been several flawed "components" listed by Mr Chamblin.  One is the assumption that B&M restaurants are going to be competing with "food trucks" like they have this huge advantage.  They don't.  They are simply different business model that may or may not be better than the one used by a B&M restaurant.  And food trucks can be as big as an investment as the B&M restaurant is.  The only advantage a FT would have over the B&M is mobility; the ability to move to a better location, like the Southside, if business does not justify being Downtown. 

Any business owner has to recognize the possibility that a competing business will move in right next store.  Any close store front can be a competing business.  The argument that an existing B&M business has some right to a distance between themselves and their competitors is simply ludicrous.

It may very well be that Food Trucks always in the Downtown Core will not do a thing for the vibrancy of Downtown.  I have no way of knowing that.  But what I do know, what I can see today for myself is that the existing B&M restaurants have not brought in the needed vibrancy nor will they ever on their own. 

Will the Food Trucks?  Again, I can't and don't know.  But what I can see is that we need a change.  That change is not the reduction of choices to keep folks downtown for lunch.  It is not the reduction of possibilities to get people to stay after work.  It is the influx of new things that will eventually lead to a more vibrant Downtown. 

Any business owner has to recognize the possibility that a competing business will move in right next store.  Any close store front can be a competing business.  The argument that an existing B&M business has some right to a distance between themselves and their competitors is simply ludicrous.

Thanks Strider -- That's the point.  And I repeat.  "The B & M's planned, invested, and opened with the EXPECTATION THAT THE NUMBER OF POSSIBLE COMPETITORS WOULD BE LIMITED BY THE AREA THEY CHOSE TO INVEST IN.  Yes ... as you say .... the business owner "does" recognize the possibility that a competing business will move right next door, or even four doors down -- but that business owner's plan did not include the possibility of there being a few mobile FT's, parasites if you will, capitalizing on the customer base he or she has built over the years.  That business owner should not be expected to share the customer base "unless" additional customer have been drawn into the area from outside by the presence of the FT's.  Will the new influx of consumers arrive?  Who knows at this time? 

In any case, the B & M is stuck in its place, contributing to the building infill objective.  The FT can move on any time to exercise its parasitic behavior upon another established market -- which is perhaps not as bad a factor in the suburbs, simply because there is more room to set up away from existing B & M.  But in the core, we should be cautious, as it is small, and fragile.  We could end up with more mobile FT's and fewer B & M's.

[ronchamblin]

FT's are alien to the downtown core .. not natural .... and force a destructive imbalance.

It's hard to even read the rest when a theory starts off with major assumption like this being presented as a fact.  how is a mobile vendor alien or unnatural to a downtown core?

If we are to agree that the primary essence of a vibrant downtown core must consist first of the B & M businesses, restaurants, and residents, filled to perhaps 90% capacity, then we might perceive the stability of,  the strength of, and the desirability of, having greater infill of core buildings.  The presence of FT's in the this kind of environment, wherein vibrancy has been achieved, would be welcomed, as there would be enough population to occupy all restaurants, including FT's. 

However, the presence of FT's in a weak core, one without sufficient permanent population, one wherein the B & M restaurants barely survive in a mediocre customer base -- could only be parasitic in consequence, and further weaken the existing B & M restaurants.  If we "must" have a change, as someone just posted, then it should be something other than a desperate attempt to do "something", even if it is wrong.  I had hoped we were over this inclination to do something .. anything ... just to do it.

What about vision for solid long-term goals .... about real sacrifice .... about choices not for fluff..... choices not for immediate gratification or profit ... choices not for immediate and fleeting visitors to the core?  How about strong leadership .. without political hogwash ... without favoritism to those who have the big bucks ...?

[thelakelander]

More assumptions being tossed into the mix.

We could end up with more mobile FTs and fewer B&Ms, except there's not one case anyone can find of this actually happening in the United States.

B&Ms only open in DT because they know there's limited competition? If this is truly the scenario, then the complaing B&Ms don't want a vibrant downtown Jax because vibrancy means probably five to ten times as much choice for the consumer and competition for individual businesses than what is currently present (even with the couple of food trucks occasionally coming downtown.

FT's are now parasites? Maybe it's just me but no single business is entitled to their own customer base.  If so, we should have provided legislation to save Morrison's Cafeteria, B Dalton Books, Hudson Motors, Zarye and  Montgomery Ward.

I seriously hope this isn't the type of argument CM Brown is listening too in order to craft his legislation.  There's enough holes here to sink the Titanic.

[thelakelander]

FT's are alien to the downtown core .. not natural .... and force a destructive imbalance.

It's hard to even read the rest when a theory starts off with major assumption like this being presented as a fact.  how is a mobile vendor alien or unnatural to a downtown core?

If we are to agree that the primary essence of a vibrant downtown core must consist first of the B & M businesses, restaurants, and residents, filled to perhaps 90% capacity, then we might perceive the stability of,  the strength of, and the desirability of, having greater infill of core buildings.

I don't agree that the primary essence of a vibrant downtown core must consist first of the B&M businesses, restaurants, and residents, filled to perhaps 90% capacity.  For all the education and professional planning experience I have, I've never heard of such a thing being put into standard practice.

The presence of FT's in the this kind of environment, wherein vibrancy has been achieved, would be welcomed, as there would be enough population to occupy all restaurants, including FT's. 

However, the presence of FT's in a weak core, one without sufficient permanent population, one wherein the B & M restaurants barely survive in a mediocre customer base -- could only be parasitic in consequence, and further weaken the existing B & M restaurants.

This is another assumption without any factual data to validate it. Tampa is an example of a city that has FT's in a core most would consider weak and one without a sufficient permanent population.  It still appears to be progressing and I still don't know of one business that has closed because of a guy selling braised pork tacos out of his truck.

If we "must" have a change, as someone just posted, then it should be something other than a desperate attempt to do "something", even if it is wrong.  I had hoped we were over this inclination to do something .. anything ... just to do it.

I agree. However, the desperate attempt is the attempt to legislate and restrict where no need to do such a thing has been remotely justified.

[ronchamblin]

Now the thread has gotten literally, ridiculous.

Parasites?  Because all of those customers 'belong' to a storefront?

All people who go into business know they are going to have to compete.  Thats really the end of the story.

If you don't like the open market, lease a space in a mall, which has riders in the lease regarding types and kinds of restaurants under a non compete clause.

Oh wait a minute.  Most of the malls are going out of business.

I am assuming of course, that we desire a vibrant city core, and guide my opinions to this end.  And yes, the FT's do engage in a measure of parasitic activity, sucking customers from a customer base as cultivated by the nearby B & M's restaurants.  Is this fair?  There must be a bit of unfairness in the core at least, although not so much in the suburbs, where there are more potential customers compared to the current weakened, partially desolate core. 

If there arrives upon the scene legislation giving excessive free reign to these parasitic FT's in the core, and if there are no more potential restaurant customers drawn in from the outside, we will see failure of more B & M, and fewer new B & M's opening in the core, and perhaps an increase of the parasites.  Is that what we want?  I thought the objective was to reduce the number of vacant buildings it he core -- a condition directly related to achieving vibrancy. 

Having high building infill is the goal .... by way of residents, offices, businesses, museums, retail, entertainment, and restaurants, and the achievement of this goal will "be" vibrancy, as "people' will be in, and visit these buildings.  To suggest that having FT's will, by encouraging temporary visitors to the core, "be" vibrancy is to miss the essence of vibrancy.  A city core vibrancy begins with solid building occupation and infill.  The FT's, coming at a later date, certainly can add to the vibrancy, but they will never jump start vibrancy.   

[ronchamblin]

Thank you for the debate exercise fellows..... really. I enjoy ... and I hope you do to.  We are making some progress I think.  I must do taxes.

[edjax]

How about a Boomtown Food Truck?  Yum!!!

[ronchamblin]

stephendare:  cultivated?  What on earth are you talking about?

The majority of them close the minute lunch peak is over.

Thats not 'cultivation' thats coasting.

I've wondered about the decision of many of the core restaurants to close after lunch.  Do most close because there are not enough customers, or because there are not enough customers traveling to the area because they know that most places close after lunch?  Subway on Monroe, and Quiznos on Hogan both stay open until 7:00 p.m. . closed on Sundays. 

I suspect that the reason they close is simply because staying open would produce only three or four customers between the hours of 3:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. -- hardly enough to warrant staying open.  This gets to the fundamental issue of there being too few workers in the core, and too few residents who might wish to frequent core restaurants.

Seems that the restaurants almost have little choice, and cannot stay open because there is not enough foot traffic.

Apparently, other than Moran's La Cena and three or four others, not many core restaurants have a uniqueness to  "draw" people into the core.     

[thelakelander]

What allows Burrito Gallery, Big Pete's, Jenkins BBQ, Burger King, McDonalds, etc. to stay open longer?

[I-10east]

I'll say this much, and I'm not really against one (FT's) or the other (B&M's). Hypothetically, if DT was filled up with locally owned B&M's, and some Big Bad chain restaurant food trucks (Subway Quizno's etc) rolled through the core, suddenly we would be having a totally different conversation.

[thelakelander]

^I don't think so. Either you're for free market enterprise or you're not. Btw, I'm not against B&M's. Actually, I think it's pretty silly to attempt to pit them against one another. They are two specific segments of the food service industry. Sort of like Macy's and Forever 21 or the newspaper classifieds and craigslist.

[BridgeTroll]

I have yet to see this "Invasion of Food Trucks".  I mean besides events where food trucks are the attraction or events that require the services of food trucks.  Where is this invasion?  I might see a truck here or there... but certainly nothing that would constitute an invasion, infection, or parasitic infestation.

Perhaps Ron or someone with knowledge of this invasion could point out the infected sites so I might observe... 

[thelakelander]

This is the lunch scene in many downtowns across the country.  I wouldn't mind seeing something like this help activate dead downtown spaces like the area around the courthouse.  Judging from CM Brown and some of the B&Ms in downtown, it seems like they would really have a heart attack if a real food truck lot or park was established.

[mbwright]

Obviously Subway, and Quizno's are not the the big draws to downtown.  I could see a problem, if maybe all of the trucks were parked directly in front of the existing b&m 's, for 24/7, then it might be an issue.  Competition should bring about a better product. 

[Noone]

Where is the legislation now?
Jacksonville city council meeting tomorrow.
Remember 2010-856 and Downtown was exempt.