The Jacksonville Landing's Redevelopment Plan

[Bill Hoff]

^^^That's really your world isn't it?  I never hear of this sort of thing, though perhaps it goes on.  The most I hear is "well Bloomberg's doing x in NYC and it's worked out well because y", but it doesn't take a convoy of city leaders and front page news articles highlighting the trip to figure this stuff out.  On the RE side of the private sector, lots of people work different markets as a natural part of their job...same dialogue, "we know what's going on in NYC or Boston" or "but that's why we're 'us' and Houston isn't", etc.


Anyway, I promised some pics of the Ferry Building, so I went there for a late lunch today and snapped some crappy pics with my iPhone.  My lunch mate even took a nice Tinder moment for me hehe

Vendors are constantly all around the Ferry Building - like the Landing, the building itself is owned by a partnership led by EOP, however, the land all around the building is mostly public (Port of SF and City of SF land).


During a morning/afternoon commute rush or a lunch rush (not in these photos), the crowds crossing The Embarcadero are incredibly thick, people running and jostling, tourists taking their time, etc.


Still an active ferry terminal serving ~15-20,000 ferry commuters a day.


The size is very similar to the Landing and there is a single main atrium with 3 little branches that bring people through from the city side to the waterfront side (and you can walk around and remain outdoors)...so very similar set up as the Landing.


About 50 retailers/vendors/restaurants in the Ferry Building, so again - very similar in size and scope to the Landing.

Ownership worked very hard and paid a good bit of money and waited patiently for success initially, but right from the start of the building's revival, the list of tenants has been almost entirely local and pretty top notch (i.e. ownership was selective, and vendors were selective in going there, and it's worked out for everyone).

What you see here in the Ferry Building is pretty much how it goes throughout the entire city of SF, which is why it has this incredible reputation for being a truly world class foodie city and why residents are such snobs, but, the Ferry Building offers that nice waterfront setting, has excellent programming, and brings a higher concentration of amazing vendors under the same roof - there's always a nice vibe of people watching, a little bit of hustle combined with a relaxing and inviting atmosphere.















Outdoors is a nice hangout.  Many of the restaurants have openings out to the back (you can enter from inside or from outside on the waterfront), with covered outdoor seating, etc.  It's a nice relaxing spot - great for a "breather" from work life in the financial district.







List of vendors/retailers:

http://www.ferrybuildingmarketplace.com/merchant_list.php


What's not shown is the event space and the office space.  Overall, such a great example for the Landing.  The Landing could be a central hub for Jacksonville's growing group of small craft/quality oriented business owners.  Put them all under one roof, help with programming as landlord, help them out initially, and share in the upside of their success!

I was at the Ferry Building a few weeks ago. Very nice. I found it strange that, besides a few restaurants, all the vendors close in the evening, considering it gets traffic into the night. The Slanted Door was pretty good.

[simms3]

I know this might be a little off point, but I had the 'Get Real' show events the last two nights at Moca.  It was nice to have a bunch of artists and collectors come downtown from other cities (NY, Denver, Cleavland, LA, etc).  It was interesting to hear what they had to say and their perceptions about DT.  According to all- They absolutely loved the city, but found downtown to be difficult.  I think the perfect example is when I tried to park in the garage next to Moca, they were charging and extra 5$ for event parking, Moca had no idea (meaning, nobody communicated this- I believe the city) and when I questioned the women (parking attendant) she was extremely rude.  Now I have traveled to large cities around the world and have never been treated so rude (even in NY).  She said it is not my problem and I should deal with my parking agency (whoever that is because she didn't know).  Now she did hand me a card with the city of Jacksonville logo on it.  She turned around and refused to talk to me.  I just had some questions.  Why when I have a parking pass, I have to pay again?  The artists who were downtown had the same issues.  Now, regardless if DT is a quite, but successful neighborhood or bustling mega center- it is failing at both.  The perception of our DT to outsiders is appalling.  There is going to have to be consistent support and investment from our city or nothing is going to happen.  No outsider (no matter how kind) is going to invest in a failed investment. 

I've had these similar type of experiences in "coming of age" cities like Jax, but not in cities like NYC, etc.  I think Atlanta has similarly rude city workers who don't have a clue.  It is definitely an unnecessary problem and I love a good bitch fight so I definitely don't end up leaving those situations without either being "banned" or having some city worker get on the radio all flustered.  Honestly, though,  not to be too blunt, but 99% of the time these are entitled welfare queen-types we're talking about who bring the attitude, and the city hires them as their front force.  It's what you get and it sucks.

I agree, it's the little things like that that add up and make a place like downtown Jax difficult.

I was at the Ferry Building a few weeks ago. Very nice. I found it strange that, besides a few restaurants, all the vendors close in the evening, considering it gets traffic into the night. The Slanted Door was pretty good.

I think that's for a few reasons:

1) The vendors themselves aren't likely going to sell their wares at night (specialty fungus, specialty teas, specialty oils, fish market, fancy cookware/cutlery from Sur La Table, etc etc)

2) Aside from Sur La Table and Peets, the vendors are small purveyors, not nationals like Whole Foods (which has locations open relatively late i.e. 10-11 throughout the city in many of the neighborhoods including mine).

3) Particularly along the waterfront where there are mainly "diners", romantic strollers, tourists, and workers getting out late, and away from the neighborhoods, themselves, nobody cares about shopping - it's all dining/entertainment at that point.  Westfield Center mall and Union Square shopping is open much later and that's where you go if you want that.

4) Ferry Building is professionally owned/managed and has office and public space, so it needs to be kept lower key at night so as to avoid issues.  This is pretty normal for similar retail operations that are open under a single roof (a la malls).

5) This is along the waterfront.  To you it may seem like constant foot traffic 24 hours a day, but it's by no means a 24 hour neighborhood since it abuts the financial district.  For that you need to wander into the city's denser and/or busier neighborhoods like the Tenderloin/Tendernob, Mission, Russian Hill/Polk Gulch, etc.  You'll find retailers open real late in these areas, as well as lots of 24 hour food/market operations.

To give you an idea of this area's perceived spending habits - I lived in a 4 tower complex within view of the Ferry Building to the "right of" the financial district for a year.  There was a Safeway on the first floor, but it closed at 9!  Aside from the other Safeway near the tourist/waterfront area near Fisherman's Wharf (closes at 10), every other Safeway in the city is 24 hours.  I rarely left work last year before 9 and missed the grocery every time.  Very frustrating.



Can I ask what your takeaways were from the FB and if you think it could translate well to the Landing?  Would that be something you would be interested in having in Jax?

[Bill Hoff]

Honestly, the Ferry Building is more or less what The Landing is now - but much better done.

It's basically a line of water front restaurants with a walkable space between the water and restaurants, complimented by a row of indoor shops/vendors.

Sound familiar?

But, it's obviously much more aesthetically pleasing than the outdated Landing, better designed to encourage communal foot traffic, higher quality tenants, and better transit options that stop right outside the front door. And, of course, more people to draw from.

Also of note, everything is on the ground floor, eye level. Not two, like the The Landing.

[Noone]

I know this might be a little off point, but I had the 'Get Real' show events the last two nights at Moca.  It was nice to have a bunch of artists and collectors come downtown from other cities (NY, Denver, Cleavland, LA, etc).  It was interesting to hear what they had to say and their perceptions about DT.  According to all- They absolutely loved the city, but found downtown to be difficult.  I think the perfect example is when I tried to park in the garage next to Moca, they were charging and extra 5$ for event parking, Moca had no idea (meaning, nobody communicated this- I believe the city) and when I questioned the women (parking attendant) she was extremely rude.  Now I have traveled to large cities around the world and have never been treated so rude (even in NY).  She said it is not my problem and I should deal with my parking agency (whoever that is because she didn't know).  Now she did hand me a card with the city of Jacksonville logo on it.  She turned around and refused to talk to me.  I just had some questions.  Why when I have a parking pass, I have to pay again?  The artists who were downtown had the same issues.  Now, regardless if DT is a quite, but successful neighborhood or bustling mega center- it is failing at both.  The perception of our DT to outsiders is appalling.  There is going to have to be consistent support and investment from our city or nothing is going to happen.  No outsider (no matter how kind) is going to invest in a failed investment. 

+1 Your not off point. Parking? Docking? The reality of the Downtown Experience.

The reality of the Downtown Experience trip especially for visitors will center around docking and parking. The Landing front and center. With FREE PARKING being the double dip of the trip. jcjohpaint captures the local jocal example that was the concern as recent FREE PARKING legislation was passed by our Jacksonville city council and went through committee and noting these very same concerns. 2014-437 and 2014-438

Visit Jacksonville!

[simms3]

Honestly, the Ferry Building is more or less what The Landing is now - but much better done.

It's basically a line of water front restaurants with a walkable space between the water and restaurants, complimented by a row of indoor shops/vendors.

Sound familiar?

But, it's obviously much more aesthetically pleasing than the outdated Landing, better designed to encourage communal foot traffic, higher quality tenants, and better transit options that stop right outside the front door. And, of course, more people to draw from.

Also of note, everything is on the ground floor, eye level. Not two, like the The Landing.

Those have been my points all along.  However, the Ferry Building has multiple levels that are in use.  Office and event space above.  Some of those piers adjacent to the Ferry Building also have office and event space, as well as more restaurants.  Bloomberg's offices are in an adjacent pier.

Also, forget about transit - Jax will never be a transit city and if you couldn't tell from The Embarcadero, there are still lots of people in SF (and obviously the Greater Bay Area) that drive.  Whatever the mode of transportation is in any given town, so long as that mode is given access to something it can work.

Where we go beyond the Landing is the fact that many people walk many blocks from elsewhere to get to the Ferry Building.  You don't park in front and even transit is ~4-5 blocks away (unless you count the tourist streetcar that stops in front).  It's a pleasant interesting walk in SF, whereas in Jax, it would not be.  So to Sleiman's point, parking needs to be practically "on-site".  Not only is it bad 2+ blocks for people to walk, I don't think there are many people in NE FL that can even comprehend walking 2+ blocks period.

Basically, all your nits against the Landing are fixable, and largely on ownership to do so, but partially on the city to help.  That's what it boils down to.  I don't think you can blame either side as you have a city that doesn't know what it's doing when it comes to anything and you have a landlord who is probably in over his skis on this kind of deal.

[VanDeusen]

Where we go beyond the Landing is the fact that many people walk many blocks from elsewhere to get to the Ferry Building.  You don't park in front and even transit is ~4-5 blocks away (unless you count the tourist streetcar that stops in front).  It's a pleasant interesting walk in SF, whereas in Jax, it would not be.  So to Sleiman's point, parking needs to be practically "on-site".  Not only is it bad 2+ blocks for people to walk, I don't think there are many people in NE FL that can even comprehend walking 2+ blocks period.

I think that if you build something that people want to get to, they will find a way to get there. If you build something at the landing that will truly draw people, they will be more than happy to park a few blocks away and walk. If you build something lackluster, you will need onsite parking and still not draw the same crowds.

[ronchamblin]

^Yes, that's been a big local problem and major reason for downtown's failed revitalization strategies over the last four or five decades.  Instead of incrementally building something that naturally works and jives with the market, we've always looked for the big ticket, one trick pony solution. While we should be focusing on the little things, like lighting the streets properly, improving the interaction between existing storefronts, buildings, and sidewalks to stimulate more foot traffic, enhancing parks, etc., we pin our hopes of things like Khan being a sugar daddy and doing something with the shipyards.  Or saying that downtown revitalization starts and stops with the Landing. While we certainly want to see these places improved, that type of talk only sets people up for grand disappointment.

Makes sense Lake.  Attention must be paid to the fundamentals of any problem or issue so as to build a solid foundation or infrastructure; especially for private experimentation and investment.  To sugarcoat with hoopla, to go for the big fix, is often wasteful, and usually results only in temporary and apparent gains ... forcing the scenario into mediocre circling. 

To engage the infrastructure with insight, building incrementally with sound practical moves, will prepare the environment, giving private investors the confidence to experiment with exciting stuff ... with the frivolous ... experiments which might or might not go.  But the solid infrastructure must exist.  Private failure is occasionally to be expected, as most investments and startups are, after all, experiments in varying degrees.

[IrvAdams]

^Yes, that's been a big local problem and major reason for downtown's failed revitalization strategies over the last four or five decades.  Instead of incrementally building something that naturally works and jives with the market, we've always looked for the big ticket, one trick pony solution. While we should be focusing on the little things, like lighting the streets properly, improving the interaction between existing storefronts, buildings, and sidewalks to stimulate more foot traffic, enhancing parks, etc., we pin our hopes of things like Khan being a sugar daddy and doing something with the shipyards.  Or saying that downtown revitalization starts and stops with the Landing. While we certainly want to see these places improved, that type of talk only sets people up for grand disappointment.

Makes sense Lake.  Attention must be paid to the fundamentals of any problem or issue so as to build a solid foundation or infrastructure; especially for private experimentation and investment.  To sugarcoat with hoopla, to go for the big fix, is often wasteful, and usually results only in temporary and apparent gains ... forcing the scenario into mediocre circling. 

To engage the infrastructure with insight, building incrementally with sound practical moves, will prepare the environment, giving private investors the confidence to experiment with exciting stuff ... with the frivolous ... experiments which might or might not go.  But the solid infrastructure must exist.  Private failure is occasionally to be expected, as most investments and startups are, after all, experiments in varying degrees.

Yes we love our headlines here. You pick up the paper one morning and the big solution has been figured out by the city. Whew! We don't have to worry about downtown any more! They're going to build X or Y.

We need baby steps. Positive, inexpensive baby steps, like streetlights, awnings, better signage, two-way streets, cheap or free parking, streamlining business startup red tape. Considerate and supportive policies towards old and historic structures. Straightforward stuff, it seems.

[strider]

Has anything really changed since this was written:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jul-breathing-life-back-into-the-jacksonville-landing#.VBWhw_ldUpg


I do not think so.  And calling the Landing "outdated" is the same as calling a 100 year old house "outdated".  Of course, in one sense, it is, but the larger picture is that is of a design that is unique to it's era.  How often do you see a picture of Baltimore, Norfolk or even Jacksonville's Downtown's and not see one of the "Landings" in the picture?

As we all seem to know that it is not the Landing itself that is DT's problem.  As we seem to agree that "fixing" the landing will not "fix" DT, what reason does anyone have to tear the Landing down and start over?  Is it that the developer knows he isn't making money on the Landing and will not with a small modification but can pocket a lot if he does the new development?  It is the only thing that makes sense to me.

KISS.  Isn't that the way forward?  Fix the little things that can be fixed and the larger picture will start to emerge and we then can capitalize on it to truly fix DT?  Isn't that exactly what Lake and many other smarter-than-me people have been saying?  So how do we get the city and the Sleimans of Jacksonville to listen? Isn't that the first step?

How do we go from this grand plan of razing the Landing and get to a smaller modification that opens up the center and changes the interior programming? 

I see lots' of ideas of big fixes, I see lots of ideas as to what is wrong, now how do we get from here to the real work of HOW to fix things, not an idea but the hard work part of it?

[ssky]

I see lots' of ideas of big fixes, I see lots of ideas as to what is wrong, now how do we get from here to the real work of HOW to fix things, not an idea but the hard work part of it?

You do it quietly and strategically, without all the grandstands and  bandstands and handstands that are so effectively distracting everybody from the hard, aka real, work.

You start with a thorough SWOT analysis of Downtown Jacksonville as a whole and you use that to build a business plan with objectives, strategies and tactics. And then, you work the plan.

You create a brand identity--something we are sorely in need of--and you begin to change our culture from one of scattered, chaotic and siloed visions of grandeur to one of slow and steady progress toward a unified goal.

[Anti redneck]

And each time one of these fails it gives those in burb areas more ammunition to say why bother with downtown because everything that has been tried or suggested fails or never happens.  And regardless of what people think about those outside of the urban core you need them to make downtown succeed as they have to vote people in office; be it mayor or council members who don't see downtown as a dirty word, but instead the engine for the entire region.

Granted, Cameron Kuhn failed downtown, he had so.e extremely nice visions. I do not understand for the life of me on why someone won't just adopt his vision and put them into fruition.

[Anti redneck]

And each time one of these fails it gives those in burb areas more ammunition to say why bother with downtown because everything that has been tried or suggested fails or never happens.  And regardless of what people think about those outside of the urban core you need them to make downtown succeed as they have to vote people in office; be it mayor or council members who don't see downtown as a dirty word, but instead the engine for the entire region.

Granted, Cameron Kuhn failed downtown, he had some extremely nice visions. I do not understand for the life of me on why someone won't just adopt his vision and put them into fruition.

[Tacachale]

And each time one of these fails it gives those in burb areas more ammunition to say why bother with downtown because everything that has been tried or suggested fails or never happens.  And regardless of what people think about those outside of the urban core you need them to make downtown succeed as they have to vote people in office; be it mayor or council members who don't see downtown as a dirty word, but instead the engine for the entire region.

Granted, Cameron Kuhn failed downtown, he had so.e extremely nice visions. I do not understand for the life of me on why someone won't just adopt his vision and put them into fruition.

Because they failed once already and drove him to bankruptcy.

[heights unknown]

CCC

And each time one of these fails it gives those in burb areas more ammunition to say why bother with downtown because everything that has been tried or suggested fails or never happens.  And regardless of what people think about those outside of the urban core you need them to make downtown succeed as they have to vote people in office; be it mayor or council members who don't see downtown as a dirty word, but instead the engine for the entire region.

Granted, Cameron Kuhn failed downtown, he had so.e extremely nice visions. I do not understand for the life of me on why someone won't just adopt his vision and put them into fruition.

Because they failed once already and drove him to bankruptcy.

Cameron Kuhn; went back to Orlando with his tail between his legs.......yes? Heard nothing more from him, or about him. Dare him to come back and finish the job; he had some great "scraper" proposals on paper before the crash. Did he really go bankrupt?

[Tacachale]

CCC

And each time one of these fails it gives those in burb areas more ammunition to say why bother with downtown because everything that has been tried or suggested fails or never happens.  And regardless of what people think about those outside of the urban core you need them to make downtown succeed as they have to vote people in office; be it mayor or council members who don't see downtown as a dirty word, but instead the engine for the entire region.

Granted, Cameron Kuhn failed downtown, he had so.e extremely nice visions. I do not understand for the life of me on why someone won't just adopt his vision and put them into fruition.

Because they failed once already and drove him to bankruptcy.

Cameron Kuhn; went back to Orlando with his tail between his legs.......yes? Heard nothing more from him, or about him. Dare him to come back and finish the job; he had some great "scraper" proposals on paper before the crash. Did he really go bankrupt?

His development company sure did.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2010/05/03/story5.html