The Jacksonville Landing's Redevelopment Plan

[thelakelander]

Hmm, no road between the Ferry building and the waterfront? Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[Anti redneck]

Didn't Mike Hogan say at one time that "Downtown is just a neighborhood," when he ran for mayor? If Sleiman's design goes through, that's exactly what it will become. Thank you, Mayor Brown for your efforts to save Downtown, but these plans make your efforts futile.

[thelakelander]

Perhaps Hogan was right and DT should be treated like an urban neighborhood initially instead of something that suburbanites and tourist will flock too on a regular basis.  However, that would still require some changes to the Landing proposal, due to the centralized premier location.

[Anti redneck]

^ I honestly have no idea why you would say that. All successful downtowns are not treated as neighborhoods, but as centers for economic and commercial activity. With all due respect, please don't twist my words. The post above is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Change the mentality and stop treating Jacksonville like some small town wasteland. Otherwise, there will never be any progress.

[thelakelander]

Just about every successful downtown that I know of in the US is a successful mixed-use urban neighborhood first, that becomes so unique and exciting at the human scale level, they attract others (tourist, suburbanites, etc.) from environments that don't offer the same quality of life and experience. On the other hand, I can't think of too many good ones that don't have a decent residential base. Efforts to bring back DT Jax will fail if we can't grow it as a mixed-use neighborhood first.

[Anti redneck]

Your argument is valid and maybe by some possible slim chance Sleiman does know what he's doing, but if Downtown becomes just another neighborhood, then it could become quieter than it already is. Might as well put up another infamous Walmart, that Jacksonville already has too many of, where the shipyards are. See where I'm coming from?

Tourism? Leave that to the Warehouse District. You could have your exotic shops and party places around there. It would be perfect for all of that.

Urban neighborhoods? Isn't that what they're trying to do with Riverside and Springfield?

Then you have Downtown, where all the businesses and commercial is going on. Are you getting me? Yeah, some high rises would be great (especially the unfinished one) and eventually some hotels, and some restaurants or shops for residents to go would be nice. I can agree with that much.

Aside from that, the new Landing design is hideous and I think we can all agree on that.

[thelakelander]

Downtown will never be just another neighborhood. The density, walkability, architectural character, history, location, etc. will always make it unique.  Once more everyday activities start to generate from an increasing population base, you'll see more retail, attractions, etc. start to spring up. With connectivity, other core neighborhoods like Brooklyn, LaVilla, Springfield, Cathedral District, etc. will grow together with DT, creating a large walkable environment. Sort of like what Boston has with the Financial District, North End, Back Bay, Chinatown, etc. or Savannah with all of the revitalized historic neighborhoods surrounding their downtown. As for the Landing, I really have no problem with the mix of proposed uses. It's issues are more design related.

[simms3]

^^^The one thing that I have to disagree with is that for the biggest and best cities in the US, the downtowns are NOT the best place to live.  Sure there IS a resident base, but downtowns are pretty dead save for tourists, events, workers, SOME residents, etc.

Examples:

NYC - Lower Manhattan - MUCH better than 10-15 years ago, but still, for most people it's not ideal
NYC - Midtown - we're not talking Midtown East or Midtown West, but the heart where the office buildings are - aside from a few luxe condos, it's "ew" and retail has been trickling out due to lack of demand (and going to the edges where the people live)

Chicago - the Loop - pretty dead compared to River North or Lincoln Park or Lakeview, but getting better

Boston - Financial District - until the last 2-3 years was very dead aside from tourism and workers, still definitely not where I would want to live in Boston.  Back Bay is really two components but is a different neighborhood altogether

San Francisco - Financial District - I DID live here for a year and was bored.  There are tens of thousands of residents, but it is still boring because the neighborhood caters to workers and tourists, and rightfully so (millions of tourists, 300,000++ workers a day, etc, the residents get drowned out)

Downtown DC - the most boring of all, in general, for sure, with the fewest residents


When you get to the level of these cities, the whole cities are walkable and urban and cool, so it's not "cooler" to be amongst all the office buildings or tourist traps.  It's a negative.


However, the rest of the cities in America aren't consistently walkable/urban and cool, so the downtown area is the only real chance at that and truly is unique and exciting comparatively speaking.  So in Jacksonville's case, as with Atlanta, Miami, Los Angeles, Charlotte, etc definitely need to focus on downtown and bringing residents there.

A place like the Landing won't survive on downtown residents, though.  Even if there are 30,000 downtown residents.  It's much bigger than that, conceptually and figuratively.  It needs tourism and it needs to draw Greater Jax residents.

[thelakelander]

^All those places are perfect examples of having a residential base first and growing to the level of vibrancy they are.  All have taken more than a century of density growth, redevelopment, and infill to get to where they are today. So all are pretty well integrated with urban districts adjacent to them. Jax was once, just at a much smaller scale, but we've destroyed that and now it will take decades to build things back up again.

As for the Landing, you're right, it won't or should not be designed to rely on just downtown residents. I wasn't saying anything otherwise, in regards to that specific project and site. What happens on specific sites is a slightly different conversation from how downtown should be viewed and developed as a whole. 

[Anti redneck]

^All those places are perfect examples of having a residential base first and growing to the level of vibrancy they are.  All have taken more than a century of density growth, redevelopment, and infill to get to where they are today. So all are pretty well integrated with urban districts adjacent to them. Jax was once, just at a much smaller scale, but we've destroyed that and now it will take decades to build things back up again.

As for the Landing, you're right, it won't or should not be designed to rely on just downtown residents. I wasn't saying anything otherwise, in regards to that specific project and site. What happens on specific sites is a slightly different conversation from how downtown should be viewed and developed as a whole.

That could be the problem with downtown, aside from the GOB network. People want results and want results immediately and when they don't get those results right away, they give up. A lot has been tried with downtown, and nothing has ever worked. Anyone else notice that?

[thelakelander]

^Yes, that's been a big local problem and major reason for downtown's failed revitalization strategies over the last four or five decades.  Instead of incrementally building something that naturally works and jives with the market, we've always looked for the big ticket, one trick pony solution. While we should be focusing on the little things, like lighting the streets properly, improving the interaction between existing storefronts, buildings, and sidewalks to stimulate more foot traffic, enhancing parks, etc., we pin our hopes of things like Khan being a sugar daddy and doing something with the shipyards.  Or saying that downtown revitalization starts and stops with the Landing. While we certainly want to see these places improved, that type of talk only sets people up for grand disappointment.

[edjax]

And each time one of these fails it gives those in burb areas more ammunition to say why bother with downtown because everything that has been tried or suggested fails or never happens.  And regardless of what people think about those outside of the urban core you need them to make downtown succeed as they have to vote people in office; be it mayor or council members who don't see downtown as a dirty word, but instead the engine for the entire region.

[Noone]

Your argument is valid and maybe by some possible slim chance Sleiman does know what he's doing, but if Downtown becomes just another neighborhood, then it could become quieter than it already is. Might as well put up another infamous Walmart, that Jacksonville already has too many of, where the shipyards are. See where I'm coming from?

Tourism? Leave that to the Warehouse District. You could have your exotic shops and party places around there. It would be perfect for all of that.

Urban neighborhoods? Isn't that what they're trying to do with Riverside and Springfield?

Then you have Downtown, where all the businesses and commercial is going on. Are you getting me? Yeah, some high rises would be great (especially the unfinished one) and eventually some hotels, and some restaurants or shops for residents to go would be nice. I can agree with that much.

Aside from that, the new Landing design is hideous and I think we can all agree on that.

+1

[jcjohnpaint]

I know this might be a little off point, but I had the 'Get Real' show events the last two nights at Moca.  It was nice to have a bunch of artists and collectors come downtown from other cities (NY, Denver, Cleavland, LA, etc).  It was interesting to hear what they had to say and their perceptions about DT.  According to all- They absolutely loved the city, but found downtown to be difficult.  I think the perfect example is when I tried to park in the garage next to Moca, they were charging and extra 5$ for event parking, Moca had no idea (meaning, nobody communicated this- I believe the city) and when I questioned the women (parking attendant) she was extremely rude.  Now I have traveled to large cities around the world and have never been treated so rude (even in NY).  She said it is not my problem and I should deal with my parking agency (whoever that is because she didn't know).  Now she did hand me a card with the city of Jacksonville logo on it.  She turned around and refused to talk to me.  I just had some questions.  Why when I have a parking pass, I have to pay again?  The artists who were downtown had the same issues.  Now, regardless if DT is a quite, but successful neighborhood or bustling mega center- it is failing at both.  The perception of our DT to outsiders is appalling.  There is going to have to be consistent support and investment from our city or nothing is going to happen.  No outsider (no matter how kind) is going to invest in a failed investment. 

[thelakelander]

Most vibrant downtowns, mega centers, etc.  are still mixed use neighborhoods.  I agree we have a lot to do and most of the things are the stuff we overlook. Your garage experience is an example of this.