Elements of Urbanism: Portland

[SL32205]

Jacksonville has better geography.  It's prettier.  It has the asset of a tremendous river and beach.  It should be everything Portland is - but with nice weather, a more interesting history, and a beach.  It struck me that way when I moved here, and still does...

I couldn't agree more.  The potential for Jax to 'blow away' Charlotte and Portland, and many major cities is definitely there.  The problem is, the local leadership doesn't appreciate what is here, nor do they understand good urban design or what is necessary to achieve a DT renaissance.  Until they do, the city's tremendous potential goes wasted

I disagree on these points that seem a "given" to others here. Better geography means what? In the South as opposed to the Northwest? We are the land gateway of Florida, as Portland is the gateway to Oregon and California from the east-west routes that trailed west from Chicago. East and West of the City of Portland the mountains touch the clouds, so it makes sense that all traffic, business and money goes through Portland. As for as long range geography, many international flights call at PDX because of it's closeness to the Pacific Rim countries.

Jacksonville is prettier? Again, that's very subjective. Standing at Portland Union Station and looking to the east at the snow cap peaks of Mount Hood and the Sisters, the broad Columbia River where it meets the Wilamette and the billions of roses, ferns and fir trees, one would question that statement. Beach? Just down the road at Astoria, and Rooster Rock. Portland's history is also pretty cool, with Lewis and Clark and the Oregon Trail, Opium wars, China slave trade and a network of underground pubs, bordellos and Shanghi Prisons, 99.9% of which are still standing. Oregon is pro rail and pro enviroment, meaning the Union Station was never turned into the "Union Pacific Officer Convention Center" as ours was.

Weather, okay, here you could be onto something. I've never seen a July afternoon in Portland where I was in a tee shirt and shorts and ringing wet with sweat... just doesn't happen. The 5 years I spent in Portland the summer kept falling on weekends and most of us slept in and missed it. But there is also something to be said for cool weather year around... Seldom bone cold, due to the Japan current in the sea, but almost always overcast and rainy cool.

Portland has one huge urban engine that we seem to have missed... our "better geography" isn't better. Portland is a City IN the Cascade Mountains. As such it has many neighborhoods that follow narrow canyons. This tends to force development into narrow corridors, making things very dense.

Portland does have one huge drawback that hasn't been mentioned. The famed Oregon "un-greetings"... Signs at the border that say... Thank you for visiting Oregon, we hope you enjoyed your visit, please don't come back! On the South exit was a state sign that read... "Please don't Californicate Oregon." Even a line of un-greeting cards... my favorite... "un-greetings from Oregon, last year in Portland 5,214 people fell off their bicycles and drowned..."  You want to match hillbilliy's with the "highly educated" Pacific Northwest? No, they have as many tobbacco spitting loggers and mountain men as we have swampers. Maybe more. The trick in rural Oregon is being able to go to the country WITHOUT being taken out by a log truck.

I think you would find Portland as the last gasp of the hippie's "back to the land" movement in America, call it whatever you want but the same FREEBIRD that took flight here, soars over Portland.

Ocklawaha

Oklawaha:

Let me correct you - Portland sits in the confluence of the Columbia and Willamette River valley's, and is hardly "in" the Cascade Mountains.  Granted, the west hills of Portland, toward Beaverton, are hilly - it is hardly mountainous.  Many outlying area's are easily developable rural or agricultuaral pasture land, but are not developed in a suburban pattern due to the Urban Growth Boundary.  It is this boundary that has influenced the enhanced density in the city center.

The logging history of the northwest has faded - and has been replaced with a very innovative, progressive culture.  The "southern" and "redneck" culture of Jacksonville has not faded as quickly.

[SL32205]

The physical similarities between Portland and Jacksonville are really obvious.  A similarly scaled river runs through the middle of town and is the major asset to the city's central core.

But - Jacksonville will never be Portland - and the differences are systematic and culturally ingrained...

I agree with most of your post but never say never.  This year aside our state is experiencing so much growth and Jacksonville is benefiting.  Jacksonville has changed so much in the last twenty years and Portland seems like a great city to model after.  I think the area college's new program to ensure all area kids can attend the local universities will pay off big tome over the next twenty years. As Florida as most people think of it expands north Jacksonville becomes a little less of the south. We have seen better leadership in the past and should in the future. Leadership is the key the people of Jax have already proven they can be forward thinking look how progressive the Better Jacksonville Plan was.   

I hope you are right.  I think Jacksonville has more unrealized potential than almost any city I know of.

[SL32205]

Also, Portland residents, like those of seattle have a very public conversation about 'quality of life'

Basically the majority of people are having active conversations like the ones on this webpage.

That's an interesting observation - and true. 

If you asked the majority of people "how do you define quality of life", I suspect the answers from Portland residents would be much different than Jacksonville residents. 

[SL32205]

The problem is we've come to view our downtown as a non-self sustaining events mecca.  Kind of like a big circus or county fair.  When the clock strikes midnight, everyone packs their bags and go, leaving only tumbleweeds and vagrants behind.  The events are nice, but they should be an accessory to a self sustaining urban neighborhood, not the other way around.  This is where our challenge lies.

The fundamental framework to support quality of life downtown doesn't exist for it to be self-sustaining, or anything beyond a temporary events venue.  The physcial basics aren't in place - and neither is the mindset of the community. 

[thelakelander]

The community mindset may not be there, but I believe the physical basics are there to begin to turn things around.  If it can happen in cities like Charlotte, Orlando or Greenville, all originally with less physical basics than we enjoy today, then I don't think its a lost cause.

[vicupstate]

Vicupstate:

Please name one city which has a comparatively uneducated population which has a vibrant, active downtown. 

For starters there is Cleveland.  I don't know much about Indianapolis' education and income levels, but I don't get the idea that it is above the national norm, and their DT is doing great and it the central focus of there city, which like Jax is large and consolidated.

A generation ago Pittsburgh was blue-collar steel town, it is the opposite today. 

Charleston in the late '70's was not affluent at all, even downtown.  Today, the metro as a whole is VERY comparable to Jacksonville in terms of income and education.  Many of the affluent of DT Charleston are not permanent residents anyway.  While Charelston proper has a modest crime level and has for years, it's northern white-flight-suburb-turn-new-'hood (North Charelston) has one of the highest crime rates in the US.

Or name a city which has comparable crime statistics which has a vibrant, active downtown?  I would submit that downtown Charleston is largely comprised of an affluent, educated population - if you consider The Battery downtown, which I would.  Also, the College of Charleston & The Citadel, have a greater influence on the urban activity of Charleston than UNF or JU do in Jacksonville.  I don't think the facts support your claims on Jacksonville's behalf.

The Citadel and CofC are in the heart of DT, not a good comparision to JU and UNF.  There COULD be a LAW School in DT Jax right now, but the 'leadership' of the city did not pursue it.   That proves my point.

Ditto regarding getting a Farmer's Market DT.  Ditto regarding building Riverside Avenue into a pedestrian-compatible boulevard instead of a freeway.  Ditto regardng getting smart Parking meters or more signage or doing something CONSTRUCTIVE with the Mian St. pocket park.

Again, I suggest that the leadership is a reflection of the constituency it serves - perhaps in Charlotte & Portland.  But it's the characteristic of an active public that respects "community" and values "quality of life" that supports that renaissance.  Jacksonville's rank & file population, in my observation, has a largely parochial view toward many quality of life elements that Portland and I suspect Charlotte hold sacred.

LEADERSHIP is not being a weather vane of public will.  It is having a vision and pursing it. 

Perhaps I overstated Jacksonville's geographic quality.  Certainly the river is a great asset, and the weather is generally good.  The city's built environment is an embarassment, especially downtown, when compared with Portland.  Is it a result of bad leadership?  Perhaps - but not singularly.  The leadership is a reflection on the population.  Mayor Peyton ran essentially unopposed, correct?

The NATURAL geographic quality of Jax is great.  You didn't overstate that, but it isn't the be-all-end-all either.  The quality of life and built environments matter to, perhaps more.

Speaking of Portland and leadership?  Can you name the past few mayors of Portland?  Were they popular?  Were they effective?  Mayor Riley and Mayor Daley are rare, and have created an aura partially through self-promotion, partially because they demonstrated leadership, and this has been possible because they haven't been subjected to term limits.  They are, in effect, benevolent dictators.  I will submit that whatever Portland is or has is a reflection on the nature of their residents their leaders serve.

I'm telling you - the culture (or mindset), and associate priorities is completely different. 

 

I don't know who is or has been the mayor of Portland, but I do know that Jax does things every day that would NEVER be done in Portland.  Creating new surface lots in the core of DT would be just the tip of that iceburg. 

Charlotte's DT got it act together under the 14 years of current mayor Pat McCrory. Before him, it was following the Jax model and getting nowhere in terms of vibracy DT.   McCrory is running for Governor now.  Even if he wins and leaves the mayor's office, the change in the DT development mindset is permanent now.  The city staffers, the business leaders, the city council, the city manager, they all get it now.   They understand the ingredients for a true 24/7 urban environment.       

   
The bottom line is Jacksonville does not have to 'trade out' it's population or get everyone a bacholor's degree.  It really just requires leadership from the top.  That's the missing element. 

[thelakelander]

Please name one city which has a comparatively uneducated population which has a vibrant, active downtown.

Other cities would include San Antonio, Savannah, Norfolk, Grand Rapids and Memphis.  Even Detroit is rapidly turning things around, centered around a downtown that is now 20 times as vibrant than the local scene we've grown to accept today.  Led by a mayor who was screwing his Chief of Staff with public money.

[SL32205]

The community mindset may not be there, but I believe the physical basics are there to begin to turn things around.  If it can happen in cities like Charlotte, Orlando or Greenville, all originally with less physical basics than we enjoy today, then I don't think its a lost cause.

Other than the river, and some historic development, I disagree that the physcal basics are there.  The working riverfront has been "sold", rather than being given to the public realm as has been done in cities such as Portland or Louisville.  A narrow ribbon of "Riverwalk" doesn't count as quality public space.  Public services such as the police headquarters and jail have become entrenched in locations which bifurcate the riverfront from the CBD.  There isn't quality open space/civic space to build upon, and the "social services" for those in need and homeless are completely concentrated in the same location that is wanting to be revitalized.  All of these "basics" need to be fixed in order to be "there".

And - let's just say the physical basics were there.  If the mindset isn't, does it matter?

I don't think it's a lost cause - but I think the limited vision, and the narrow culture of much of Jacksonville's population will keep it from resembling Portland.  It is what it is - but I'm hopeful that "enlightenment" will find it's day.

[thelakelander]

The community mindset may not be there, but I believe the physical basics are there to begin to turn things around.  If it can happen in cities like Charlotte, Orlando or Greenville, all originally with less physical basics than we enjoy today, then I don't think its a lost cause.

Other than the river, and some historic development, I disagree that the physcal basics are there.  The working riverfront has been "sold", rather than being given to the public realm as has been done in cities such as Portland or Louisville.  A narrow ribbon of "Riverwalk" doesn't count as quality public space.  Public services such as the police headquarters and jail have become entrenched in locations which bifurcate the riverfront from the CBD.  There isn't quality open space/civic space to build upon, and the "social services" for those in need and homeless are completely concentrated in the same location that is wanting to be revitalized.  All of these "basics" need to be fixed in order to be "there".

I think that's where we make a mistake locally by isolating downtown from the rest of the core neighborhoods.  Yes, we have the river, but we also have a huge +1 mile long public space along Hogans Creek, that merges downtown with Springfield.  Its only 12 short blocks north of the riverfront.  We have vibrant urban activity in areas like Five Points, San Marco and even the Farmer's Market on Beaver Street, that are roughly one mile from the heart of the Northbank CBD.  While there is no huge place of higher learning in the core, we do have Edward Waters and FCCJ, both of which we still fail to take advantage of.  The bones to establish a vibrant core are still there, we just have to learn how to make the parts work and one of the first steps in doing that is realizing that the Northbank's ultimate success relies on physically restoring the connectivity with it and the nearby neighborhoods that was purposefully cut off in the mid-to-late 20th century.

And - let's just say the physical basics were there.  If the mindset isn't, does it matter?

I think the mindset is there.  It just has to grow at city hall.

I don't think it's a lost cause - but I think the limited vision, and the narrow culture of much of Jacksonville's population will keep it from resembling Portland.  It is what it is - but I'm hopeful that "enlightenment" will find it's day.

I don't think the goal of Jacksonville should be to resemble Portland.  I would hope we could learn to look at the things they have had success in implementing and possibly apply some of the techniques locally in a manner that creates a unique Jacksonville-style urban core, just like Charleston and Savannah have done.  Both don't resemble Portland, but they have discovered a way to create a vibrant urban core that preserves their unique local culture.

[vicupstate]

Please name one city which has a comparatively uneducated population which has a vibrant, active downtown.

Other cities would include San Antonio, Savannah, Norfolk, Grand Rapids and Memphis.  Even Detroit is rapidly turning things around, centered around a downtown that is now 20 times as vibrant than the local scene we've grown to accept today.  Led by a mayor who was screwing his Chief of Staff with public money.

How could I forget :  Baltimore

Very blue collar, low income, and HIGH crime.  Yet there Downtown is a national model.

[Steve]

While I think the education level helps (Atlanta would not be the economic power it is without Georgia Tech), I don't think that's the only factor.  Furthermore, I think good leadership can overcome that (to a point), and challenge the educational facilities in town to strive to become a contributor to the city.

A partnership is a two way street.  To me, leading a city is about public-private partnerships.  Atlanta and Georgia Tech seem to have a very good relationship.  On the other hand, I haven't seen Peyton reaching out to Delaney at UNF or Romesburg at JU much to encourage public-private partnerships between the universitites and the government.

On a side note, Peyton might have to stick out one hell of an olive brach to Delaney after Delaney has had to listen to Peyton blame him for the courthouse cost overruns five years after he left City Hall

BTW, this is a great debate

[Driven1]

A partnership is a two way street.  To me, leading a city is about public-private partnerships.  Atlanta and Georgia Tech seem to have a very good relationship.  On the other hand, I haven't seen Peyton reaching out to Delaney at UNF or Romesburg at JU much to encourage public-private partnerships between the universitites and the government.

it's about much more than that.  leadership first, is about influence.  and peyton has none because a) had no real experience to speak of before he came on the job and b) has failed to produce as mayor while on the job now.  look at those cities that are not defined by relationships with universities - like Charlotte - UNCC is there, but the city has no really strong bond with the uni.  also, take Columbia, SC - it has Columbia Bible College & USC - Columbia, but the city's leader is not defined by how he is partnering with the unis.

i agree...great debate!

[Jason]

While I think the education level helps (Atlanta would not be the economic power it is without Georgia Tech), I don't think that's the only factor.  Furthermore, I think good leadership can overcome that (to a point), and challenge the educational facilities in town to strive to become a contributor to the city.

A partnership is a two way street.  To me, leading a city is about public-private partnerships.  Atlanta and Georgia Tech seem to have a very good relationship.  On the other hand, I haven't seen Peyton reaching out to Delaney at UNF or Romesburg at JU much to encourage public-private partnerships between the universitites and the government.

On a side note, Peyton might have to stick out one hell of an olive brach to Delaney after Delaney has had to listen to Peyton blame him for the courthouse cost overruns five years after he left City Hall

BTW, this is a great debate

I wonder if Delaney has retracted his endorsement of Peyton? 

I'd love to see Delaney back in office, but I really doubt he would leave his sweet job with UNF.

[Steve]

I wonder if Delaney has retracted his endorsement of Peyton? 

What endorsement?  Delaney didn't endorse anyone in the Mayoral Election.  He did say that he would endorse Rick Mullaney, and then two days later Mullaney decides not to run.

[Driven1]

I wonder if Delaney has retracted his endorsement of Peyton? 

What endorsement?  Delaney didn't endorse anyone in the Mayoral Election.  He did say that he would endorse Rick Mullaney, and then two days later Mullaney decides not to run.

not endorsement, but he has never criticized him when everyone else on the planet has.  also, we've seen the hunky dory emails he has sent him where he's all like "it'll be ok, you're doing a great job".