Elements of Urbanism: Portland

[vicupstate]

SL32205's post are very relevant and insightful, and the change of mentality aspect is true, but I think overstates that aspect.

Charlotte is southern, and made all the same mistakes Jacksonvile has made, and usually to a greater degree.  BUT, at some point in the last decade, those at the top (politically speaking) finally started doing things right.

Finally, the powers that be "got it".  They started doing the RIGHT things.  They realized endless road widening and DT demolition, and ignoring the pedestrian were the WRONG things to do.  They finally understood the details, the little things that mattered.     

They replaced all the aforementioned with Light rail, building a residential base, creating a nightlife, embracing their uniqueness instead of running from it (ie NASACR).   The difference is night and day.

The average Westside resident with a low-skill job doesn't have to understand, or even care, about all this stuff.  BUT, the cities' power structure DOES.

Charleston is not particularly highly-educated, and the culture is as southern as it gets.  But the man at the top 'got it' and implemented it.  The very same thing has been happening here in Greenville. 

The Westsider in Jacksonville (or Charlotte) or the 'Neck' shipyard worker in Charleston, or the former mill worker in Greenville, will go to their respective Downtowns, if there is 'something' to bring them there. 

What matters is that the powers that be, understand how to CREATE that 'something'.         

[David]

I was hoping to take a few pictures for metrojax during my first visit to Portland next month, but my timing's obviously off...

I've only heard great things about Portland, so I'm finally going to go see it in person first hand. Hopefully I won't be raving about it rabidly when I come back like most people, but I dont see any reason why I wouldn't like it, other than the hipper than thou vibe i've heard about

Any suggestions as to what I should check out during my short visit?

[SL32205]

Vicupstate:

I haven't overstated anything.  The fact that you have stereotyped the "westside" residents as you have validates my point about the intellectual and cultural divide that exists between the Pacific Northwest and the South.

Why is the "average westside resident" stereotyped to have a low paying job?  Is it true?  Are they described as low paying because they aren't educated?  Or sophisticated thinkers?  How big is the westside?  According to my map, it's huge.

Would a public bus full of a random cross section of people only from the westside have a different "feel" from a bus full of people from the southside?  How about St. Johns County?  Or the northside?  Or the beach...?

I'd guess if you answered the question honestly, you'd say yes.    

Charlotte hasn't thrived because of light rail, or street widths - they've thrived because of the intellectual capacity of that community (a wide cross section of the public - including but not limited to its leaders) to finance, plan, and support a renaissance.  Charlotte has universities, corporate headquarters, and a much more highly educuated population.  

Jacksonville has better geography.  It's prettier.  It has the asset of a tremendous river and beach.  It should be everything Portland is - but with nice weather, a more interesting history, and a beach.  It struck me that way when I moved here, and still does...

I submit that if you put Jacksonville's population - all of it - in Portland, they wouldn't live, act, and make of the city what Portland does - and in ten years it would probably look a whole lot different than Portland does now.  Most likely not for the good.  

[Steve]

To me leadership at the top is the key.  We were headed in the right direction with Delaney (even though I didn't agree with every single thing that happened under his watch), then we did something incredibly stupid - elect John Peyton.  The urban areas in my opinion have retracted under him (and I don't want to hear about the real estate collapse causing the problem - that's a load of crap)

With decent leadership, the insane questions that come out of DDRB would not happen.  With decent leadership, we wouldn't be demolishing a 107 year old building because the owners let it fall it to the ground and the city watched it happen.  With decent leadership, getting decent lighting and signage would be possible.

While I would agree that an educated workforce would probably see the light in the stupidity that we have here, but we have what we have for the next few years.  UNF is not going to turn into Georgia Tech, but could serve as a great educational institution for the city.

[vicupstate]

Vicupstate:

I haven't overstated anything.  The fact that you have stereotyped the "westside" residents as you have validates my point about the intellectual and cultural divide that exists between the Pacific Northwest and the South.

Why is the "average westside resident" stereotyped to have a low paying job?  Is it true?  Are they described as low paying because they aren't educated?  Or sophisticated thinkers?  How big is the westside?  According to my map, it's huge.

Would a public bus full of a random cross section of people only from the westside have a different "feel" from a bus full of people from the southside?  How about St. Johns County?  Or the northside?  Or the beach...?

I'd guess if you answered the question honestly, you'd say yes.    

My point was that education or income level is NOT the determining factor of a city's ability to create a truly vibrant, successful urban environment.  Jacksonville is less blue collar/ working class than Charleston, yet there is no comparision between the two in terms of historic preservation, downtown renaissance, density, etc.   

Charlotte hasn't thrived because of light rail, or street widths - they've thrived because of the intellectual capacity of that community (a wide cross section of the public - including but not limited to its leaders) to finance, plan, and support a renaissance.  Charlotte has universities, corporate headquarters, and a much more highly educuated population.  

Charlotte had all of those things when it's downtown sucked, and they were tearing down every building over ten years old too.  The difference now  is that the power brokers in business and government LEARNED the right way to REBUILD the urban fabric and create density and places that residents want to go to.  They realized it took more than tall buildings to create an urban environment. 

Jacksonville has better geography.  It's prettier.  It has the asset of a tremendous river and beach.  It should be everything Portland is - but with nice weather, a more interesting history, and a beach.  It struck me that way when I moved here, and still does...

I couldn't agree more.  The potential for Jax to 'blow away' Charlotte and Portland, and many major cities is definitely there.  The problem is, the local leadership doesn't appreciate what is here, nor do they understand good urban design or what is necessary to achieve a DT renaissance.  Until they do, the city's tremendous potential goes wasted.
   

I submit that if you put Jacksonville's population - all of it - in Portland, they wouldn't live, act, and make of the city what Portland does - and in ten years it would probably look a whole lot different than Portland does now.  Most likely not for the good.  

I submit that the leadership of any city is the key thing.  5-10 years ago in Jacksonville, things were happening, private investors were drawn in, there was an ENERGY of change in the air.  The city had goals, like pulling off a great Super Bowl. That's gone now.  The general population of the city didn't change to any significant degree, but the leadership did.

[Kathryn]

We were out in Portland last summer on vacation--there were a lot of positives but then again we were there in July (the only sunny month of the year, I think).  One thing that Jacksonville beats Portland hands down on is fireworks.  We went to the Portland 4th of July fireworks display and it was such a let down.  (I also was turned off by the unsupervised children waving around sprinklers right near crowds of people.)  Jacksonville has better fireworks during a regular baseball game.  I know many people, including me, think that our city overdoes the fireworks thing, but they are fun.

We also were in Seattle, which I actually liked much better than Portland.  To me it had a better vibe and more to do as a tourist.

[JeffreyS]

The physical similarities between Portland and Jacksonville are really obvious.  A similarly scaled river runs through the middle of town and is the major asset to the city's central core.

But - Jacksonville will never be Portland - and the differences are systematic and culturally ingrained...

I agree with most of your post but never say never.  This year aside our state is experiencing so much growth and Jacksonville is benefiting.  Jacksonville has changed so much in the last twenty years and Portland seems like a great city to model after.  I think the area college's new program to ensure all area kids can attend the local universities will pay off big tome over the next twenty years. As Florida as most people think of it expands north Jacksonville becomes a little less of the south. We have seen better leadership in the past and should in the future. Leadership is the key the people of Jax have already proven they can be forward thinking look how progressive the Better Jacksonville Plan was.   

[Ocklawaha]

Jacksonville has better geography.  It's prettier.  It has the asset of a tremendous river and beach.  It should be everything Portland is - but with nice weather, a more interesting history, and a beach.  It struck me that way when I moved here, and still does...

I couldn't agree more.  The potential for Jax to 'blow away' Charlotte and Portland, and many major cities is definitely there.  The problem is, the local leadership doesn't appreciate what is here, nor do they understand good urban design or what is necessary to achieve a DT renaissance.  Until they do, the city's tremendous potential goes wasted

I disagree on these points that seem a "given" to others here. Better geography means what? In the South as opposed to the Northwest? We are the land gateway of Florida, as Portland is the gateway to Oregon and California, also a gateway for the east-west routes that trailed west from Chicago. Both directions, East and West of the City of Portland the mountains touch the clouds, so it makes sense that all traffic, business and money goes through Portland. As for as long range geography, many international flights call at PDX because of it's closeness to the Pacific Rim countries.

Jacksonville is prettier? Again, that's very subjective. Standing at Portland Union Station and looking to the east at the snow cap peaks of Mount Hood and the Sisters, the broad Columbia River where it meets the Wilamette and the billions of roses, ferns and fir trees, one would question that statement. Beach? Just down the road at Astoria, and Rooster Rock. Portland's history is also pretty cool, with Lewis and Clark and the Oregon Trail, Opium wars, China slave trade and a network of underground pubs, bordellos and Shanghi Prisons, 99.9% of which are still standing. Oregon is pro rail and pro enviroment, meaning the Union Station was never turned into the "Union Pacific Officer Convention Center" as ours was.

Weather, okay, here you could be onto something. I've never seen a July afternoon in Portland where I was in a tee shirt and shorts and ringing wet with sweat... just doesn't happen. The 5 years I spent in Portland the summer kept falling on weekends and most of us slept in and missed it. But there is also something to be said for cool weather year around... Seldom bone cold, due to the Japan current in the sea, but almost always overcast and rainy cool.

Portland has one huge urban engine that we seem to have missed... our "better geography" isn't better. Portland is a City IN the Cascade Mountains. As such it has many neighborhoods that follow narrow canyons. This tends to force development into narrow corridors, making things very dense.

Portland does have one huge drawback that hasn't been mentioned. The famed Oregon "un-greetings"... Signs at the border that said... Thank you for visiting Oregon, we hope you enjoyed your visit, please don't come back! On the South exit was a state sign that read... "Please don't Californicate Oregon." Even a line of un-greeting cards... my favorite... "un-greetings from Oregon, last year in Portland 5,214 people fell off their bicycles and drowned..."  You want to match hillbilliy's with the "highly educated" Pacific Northwest? No, they have as many tobbacco spitting loggers and mountain men as we have swampers. Maybe more. The trick in rural Oregon is being able to go to the country WITHOUT being taken out by a log truck.

I think you would find Portland as the last gasp of the hippie's "back to the land" movement in America, call it whatever you want but the same FREEBIRD that took flight here, soars over Portland today.

Medellin with snow, obviously if I lived anywhere else... it would be PORTLAND.

Ocklawaha

[SL32205]

We were out in Portland last summer on vacation--there were a lot of positives but then again we were there in July (the only sunny month of the year, I think).  One thing that Jacksonville beats Portland hands down on is fireworks.  We went to the Portland 4th of July fireworks display and it was such a let down.  (I also was turned off by the unsupervised children waving around sprinklers right near crowds of people.)  Jacksonville has better fireworks during a regular baseball game.  I know many people, including me, think that our city overdoes the fireworks thing, but they are fun.

We also were in Seattle, which I actually liked much better than Portland.  To me it had a better vibe and more to do as a tourist.

Kathryn - Seattle is a better tourist town than Portland, it's bigger and has many great things to do and see.  It also has terrible traffic through town and to the suburbs and has become much more congested.  Many consider Portland more "livable"...

[Jason]

We were out in Portland last summer on vacation--there were a lot of positives but then again we were there in July (the only sunny month of the year, I think).  One thing that Jacksonville beats Portland hands down on is fireworks.  We went to the Portland 4th of July fireworks display and it was such a let down.  (I also was turned off by the unsupervised children waving around sprinklers right near crowds of people.)  Jacksonville has better fireworks during a regular baseball game.  I know many people, including me, think that our city overdoes the fireworks thing, but they are fun.

We also were in Seattle, which I actually liked much better than Portland.  To me it had a better vibe and more to do as a tourist.

You're right on about Jacksonville's fireworks.  Our city really knows how to wow the masses with the biggest and loudests shows around, sometimes for no apparent reason!

[thelakelander]

The problem is we've come to view our downtown as a non-self sustaining events mecca.  Kind of like a big circus or county fair.  When the clock strikes midnight, everyone packs their bags and go, leaving only tumbleweeds and vagrants behind.  The events are nice, but they should be an accessory to a self sustaining urban neighborhood, not the other way around.  This is where our challenge lies.

[Jason]

^ You don't like fireworks do you Lake...   

[thelakelander]

I love them but I'd trade them in a heartbeat for a vibrant downtown.

[Jason]

Just pokin' fun at ya Lake.

I always get there early and leave late.  You almost have to get there early to get a good seat outside at Hooters and then have to leave late to wait out the rush.  Walking around downtown and riding the skyway back to Kings Ave station also helps to walk off the pitchers of beer and chicken wings and hopefully recover some of your hearing!

[SL32205]

Vicupstate:

I haven't overstated anything.  The fact that you have stereotyped the "westside" residents as you have validates my point about the intellectual and cultural divide that exists between the Pacific Northwest and the South.

Why is the "average westside resident" stereotyped to have a low paying job?  Is it true?  Are they described as low paying because they aren't educated?  Or sophisticated thinkers?  How big is the westside?  According to my map, it's huge.

Would a public bus full of a random cross section of people only from the westside have a different "feel" from a bus full of people from the southside?  How about St. Johns County?  Or the northside?  Or the beach...?

I'd guess if you answered the question honestly, you'd say yes.    

My point was that education or income level is NOT the determining factor of a city's ability to create a truly vibrant, successful urban environment.  Jacksonville is less blue collar/ working class than Charleston, yet there is no comparision between the two in terms of historic preservation, downtown renaissance, density, etc.   

Charlotte hasn't thrived because of light rail, or street widths - they've thrived because of the intellectual capacity of that community (a wide cross section of the public - including but not limited to its leaders) to finance, plan, and support a renaissance.  Charlotte has universities, corporate headquarters, and a much more highly educuated population.  

Charlotte had all of those things when it's downtown sucked, and they were tearing down every building over ten years old too.  The difference now  is that the power brokers in business and government LEARNED the right way to REBUILD the urban fabric and create density and places that residents want to go to.  They realized it took more than tall buildings to create an urban environment. 

Jacksonville has better geography.  It's prettier.  It has the asset of a tremendous river and beach.  It should be everything Portland is - but with nice weather, a more interesting history, and a beach.  It struck me that way when I moved here, and still does...

I couldn't agree more.  The potential for Jax to 'blow away' Charlotte and Portland, and many major cities is definitely there.  The problem is, the local leadership doesn't appreciate what is here, nor do they understand good urban design or what is necessary to achieve a DT renaissance.  Until they do, the city's tremendous potential goes wasted.
   

I submit that if you put Jacksonville's population - all of it - in Portland, they wouldn't live, act, and make of the city what Portland does - and in ten years it would probably look a whole lot different than Portland does now.  Most likely not for the good.  

I submit that the leadership of any city is the key thing.  5-10 years ago in Jacksonville, things were happening, private investors were drawn in, there was an ENERGY of change in the air.  The city had goals, like pulling off a great Super Bowl. That's gone now.  The general population of the city didn't change to any significant degree, but the leadership did.

Vicupstate:

Please name one city which has a comparatively uneducated population which has a vibrant, active downtown.  Or name a city which has comparable crime statistics which has a vibrant, active downtown?  I would submit that downtown Charleston is largely comprised of an affluent, educated population - if you consider The Battery downtown, which I would.  Also, the College of Charleston & The Citadel, have a greater influence on the urban activity of Charleston than UNF or JU do in Jacksonville.  I don't think the facts support your claims on Jacksonville's behalf.

Again, I suggest that the leadership is a reflection of the constituency it serves - perhaps in Charlotte & Portland.  But it's the characteristic of an active public that respects "community" and values "quality of life" that supports that renaissance.  Jacksonville's rank & file population, in my observation, has a largely parochial view toward many quality of life elements that Portland and I suspect Charlotte hold sacred.

Perhaps I overstated Jacksonville's geographic quality.  Certainly the river is a great asset, and the weather is generally good.  The city's built environment is an embarassment, especially downtown, when compared with Portland.  Is it a result of bad leadership?  Perhaps - but not singularly.  The leadership is a reflection on the population.  Mayor Peyton ran essentially unopposed, correct?

Speaking of Portland and leadership?  Can you name the past few mayors of Portland?  Were they popular?  Were they effective?  Mayor Riley and Mayor Daley are rare, and have created an aura partially through self-promotion, partially because they demonstrated leadership, and this has been possible because they haven't been subjected to term limits.  They are, in effect, benevolent dictators.  I will submit that whatever Portland is or has is a reflection on the nature of their residents their leaders serve.

I'm telling you - the culture (or mindset), and associate priorities is completely different.