Khan interested in developing shipyards

[RattlerGator]

Respectfully disagree.

There's no fundamental difference between the big-box entertainment complexes that Cordish is building in the 2010's and the big-box festival marketplaces that Rouse specialized in back in the 80's.

Its just a slightly more modern take on urban renewal in a box.

So, your contention is there's no fundamental difference between a festival marketplace with no particular focus (other than a collection of shops in downtown where people no longer shop) with a sports and entertainment marketplace plopped down in a sports and entertainment district with an already existing football stadium, amphitheater, baseball stadium and multi-purpose arena ? ? ?

Yeah . . . I respectfully think you'd benefit from re-thinking that assertion, Ken. With, of course, the rather fundamental understanding that the primary difference between the two is a skin-in-the-game billionaire pushing the latter and a municipality merely incentivizing the former.

[TimmyB]

...not talking the 18,000-40,000 visitors flooding in for baseball, hockey, or the NBA, we're talking 3,000 for the Icemen, 5,000 maybe for the Shrimp, 4,000 for concerts, etc.

250,000 sf is huge.

Will happily be proven wrong, but it's a tough ask to pack that place every night.

3 Words:

Ex!

Eff!

El!

Sweet!  That will add another 4,000 people down there 10 nights a year!!!   

[thelakelander]

Saw this comment on the T-U story.



Curious if anyone had any memories/further information on this Music Shed?

Doing some Googling, I'm finding some references to a "Riverside Music Shed" that hosted a few shows (Blink 182, Silverchair, Bob Dylan, Widespread Panic) in 1999.

Was this the bandshell at Metro Park, or a different, short-lived venue elsewhere?

The shed was a fabrication warehouse at the shipyards that had not been torn down at the time. Wish they would have kept it. Oh well.

You can see it in this old Trilegacy photo:



It's the large blue warehouse in the 1980s image below:

[thelakelander]

One thing that I do like about Cordish is that there's a conscious effort made with each of their developments to make them uniquely local. I could see a Safe Harbor/Jumbo Shrimp restaurant, or an M-Shack/Medure concept, or a Black Sheep/Insetta restaurant, or something from Forking Amazing fitting in really nicely. Ditto with any of our local breweries. Ironic that this same local concept may have helped turn the Landing around.

And you better believe that, if this project gets built, it's going to be a death blow to the Jacksonville Landing as we currently know it. It would take 100% of business for Florida-Georgia from the Landing. It would greatly cannibalize New Year's Eve, as Cordish venues typically host massive NYE parties. It would steal gameday business from visiting fans, who still think the Landing is the place to go. It would even steal concert business from the Landing, though it feels like they've slowly phased out live music.

Unfortunately, the proper coordination of projects in downtown isn't going to happen due to politics. However, this doesn't have to be the end of the Landing. At the end of the day, the Landing has a superior centralized location and is within walking distance of the core Northbank residential and office worker population.  It will also be within walking distance of the new hotels, as well as the Omni and Hyatt. It's also one block from a Skyway station....superior location regardless of politics or what takes place in the Sports District.

However, Sleiman will have to carve out a niche that differs from the Cordish model. People have been saying it a while but combine a food hall component, with riverfront restaurants and some limited retail that serves the need of the surrounding population (like a CVS/Walgreens, Staples, etc.) and fill some space with a cultural use, and it will be just fine. Try to go head to head with the Cordish model and it will fail.

In reality, I'm more concerned about the impact on Doro. Seems like Cordish is a corporate play on the same market and same type of tenants.

[thelakelander]

^The Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville were designed to be able to expand should the time come. MLB commissioner has also said within the last year, they're considering expanding. Of all of the major sports I could see Jacksonville supporting MLB the most (football). If we did land an MLB team this would end up looking like all of the cities mentioned above...

This isn't realistic. Jax will never have a MLB team (market is way too small) and the Baseball Grounds can't be expanded that large anyway.

[thelakelander]

P.S. If you look at Cordish's Live developments around the country, they've got their tropes. You can pretty much guess what a Jacksonville Live would look like. There's bound to be a giant central sports bar with a 30'+ HD television. Other restaurants and bars surrounding it. You can bet your ass there will be a mechanical bull somewhere. Balconies. Live music venue. Probably a summer country music series. A new year's eve ball drop. Seasonal events. Family days in the summer. Etc.

Texas Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N9Tm7ft9Xo

Ballpark Village:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlrFmGIQMk

Xfinity Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOmaVFFT9p8

4th Street Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9rGtIoMBY

Powerplant Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvv4w2sGF0c

Serious question, Ken.  Most of these others are in "major league" cities, where if you look at BB (81), FB (, hockey (41), and BkB (41), there are over half of the days in a year with a home game, and that's not counting pre-season, post-season, etc.  You are going to have 15,000 to 80,000 people in that area for each of those.  Add to that a great selection of concerts happening at the 15,000 seat arena, you've got 250 to 300 nights a year covered.  We don't have that.  We've got the Jags.  We have no MLB, NBA, NHL franchises.  Those teams will draw between 1,000 and 3,000 per game at our minor league level. 

Do you think this will be successful in this town?  I am excited by the prospect of having something worth going to down there, but I imagine I would've felt the same way when they built the Landings, if I had been here back then.  I'm just sensing that there won't be enough "big" nightly events to make it fly.

My gut sure says no.

Most of these Cordish venues are open 7 days a week, from 11:00 AM to 2:00 AM.

Not sure who's hanging out at the Sports complex until 2:00 AM on weeknights, and the lack of transit doesn't even make it a convenient lunch spot for downtown workers. And even on non-NFL gamedays/events, we're not talking the 18,000-40,000 visitors flooding in for baseball, hockey, or the NBA, we're talking 3,000 for the Icemen, 5,000 maybe for the Shrimp, 4,000 for concerts, etc.

250,000 sf is huge.

Will happily be proven wrong, but it's a tough ask to pack that place every night.

My gut says it won't be anywhere near 250,000 square feet of leasable retail. I suspect that number might end up including some office space or be something that could be phased incrementally over time. Could something like a Xfinity Live work? Probably, if designed to be a regional draw. With that said, I'm sure they've down their homework. Khan didn't get to be a billionaire by blowing money. This more realistic than this.....

[thelakelander]

Remind me though, what dense, walkable "entertainment-focused" districts does Jacksonville have currently?

The Elbow in Downtown and Five Points in Riverside would be two examples. The Elbow is more authentic and has the potential to be a lot more, depending on what happens with the old courthouse site and the alley between Ocean and Newnan. The Cordish product is more of something that attracts white suburbanites and sports fans on game days. Not sure it will have the same daily appeal with people attracted to places popping up in Riverside and Springfield. Just look at 4th Street Live in Louisville. It attracts a different crowd from the places in the Highlands.

[thelakelander]

From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Good ole vic.

Duval Live! will get built, be incredibly successful . . . and vic will still be stuttering that none of this makes any sense. Had they only copied Greenville . . . .

The Landing is in no way, shape or form a similar structure. It is something we've never seen in this market, and it may be something that seriously affects the ability of this city to pull the casual pass-through traffic off of Interstate 95 and convince them to stay a day or three.

Respectfully disagree.

There's no fundamental difference between the big-box entertainment complexes that Cordish is building in the 2010's and the big-box festival marketplaces that Rouse specialized in back in the 80's.

Its just a slightly more modern take on urban renewal in a box.

The thought of attracting suburbanites is the same but the retail mix is totally different. Festival marketplaces were pretty much enclosed malls (without department stores as anchors) with the same specialty retailers you'd find in Rouse's suburban regional malls. Cordish's urban projects tend to be dominated with themed destination restaurants and bars clustered together around live entertainment. The common link between the two are destination restaurants and live entertainment. An example of them co-existing is Power Plant Live! and Harborplace in Baltimore.  Harborplace recently changed their tenant mix to go more cultural (replaced retailers with a Ripley's) and food hall with a few destination restaurants. That's the model the Landing should take, IMO.

[jaxnyc79]

From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Good ole vic.

Duval Live! will get built, be incredibly successful . . . and vic will still be stuttering that none of this makes any sense. Had they only copied Greenville . . . .

The Landing is in no way, shape or form a similar structure. It is something we've never seen in this market, and it may be something that seriously affects the ability of this city to pull the casual pass-through traffic off of Interstate 95 and convince them to stay a day or three.

Respectfully disagree.

There's no fundamental difference between the big-box entertainment complexes that Cordish is building in the 2010's and the big-box festival marketplaces that Rouse specialized in back in the 80's.

Its just a slightly more modern take on urban renewal in a box.

The thought of attracting suburbanites is the same but the retail mix is totally different. Festival marketplaces were pretty much enclosed malls (without department stores as anchors) with the same specialty retailers you'd find in Rouse's suburban regional malls. Cordish's urban projects tend to be dominated with themed destination restaurants and bars clustered together around live entertainment. The common link between the two are destination restaurants and live entertainment. An example of them co-existing is Power Plant Live! and Harborplace in Baltimore.  Harborplace recently changed their tenant mix to go more cultural (replaced retailers with a Ripley's) and food hall with a few destination restaurants. That's the model the Landing should take, IMO.

I know it's too early to know this, but what are the chances this project will do away with the retention pond?  Also, if i recall correctly, that area isn't really "urbanized."  Any chance we'll see narrow, grid-patterned streets with sidewalks created for facade entrances?  Is that how you turn a stadium parking lot into another inner city block? 

[thelakelander]

South of Adams Street was never urbanized with a street grid. That stretch of Gator Bowl Boulevard was the St. Johns Shipbuilding Company during WWII (the office is the white building with the green roof across the street from the Baseball Grounds) and remained an industrial yard right up unto the area was redeveloped in the 1990s for the arrival of the Jags. It's way too early but I doubt the pond is going anywhere. Lot J is big enough for what they want to do. However, the parking lot is a mega block grid, so I wouldn't be surprised if the circulation remained a grid.

[marcuscnelson]

And you better believe that, if this project gets built, it's going to be a death blow to the Jacksonville Landing as we currently know it. It would take 100% of business for Florida-Georgia from the Landing. It would greatly cannibalize New Year's Eve, as Cordish venues typically host massive NYE parties. It would steal gameday business from visiting fans, who still think the Landing is the place to go. It would even steal concert business from the Landing, though it feels like they've slowly phased out live music.

Isn't Lot J the one directly adjacent to Daily's Place? Why would you need to build an additional massive stage when all you need is a big sidewalk leading people to the 5,000 seat amphitheater?

Now, I could see them still building smaller stages, maybe up to 1,000 max. But they just don't need to build anything bigger than that when they're right next door to something that works well, and is already owned by the people who will own this.

...not talking the 18,000-40,000 visitors flooding in for baseball, hockey, or the NBA, we're talking 3,000 for the Icemen, 5,000 maybe for the Shrimp, 4,000 for concerts, etc.

250,000 sf is huge.

Will happily be proven wrong, but it's a tough ask to pack that place every night.

3 Words:

Ex!

Eff!

El!

Haha, very funny.

But I can't imagine Khan and the Jags allowing an existing franchise to exist in the same city with them. And more than that, are they supposed to share a stadium? Can they even do that?

Unfortunately, the proper coordination of projects in downtown isn't going to happen due to politics. However, this doesn't have to be the end of the Landing. At the end of the day, the Landing has a superior centralized location and is within walking distance of the core Northbank residential and office worker population.  It will also be within walking distance of the new hotels, as well as the Omni and Hyatt. It's also one block from a Skyway station....superior location regardless of politics or what takes place in the Sports District.

However, Sleiman will have to carve out a niche that differs from the Cordish model. People have been saying it a while but combine a food hall component, with riverfront restaurants and some limited retail that serves the need of the surrounding population (like a CVS/Walgreens, Staples, etc.) and fill some space with a cultural use, and it will be just fine. Try to go head to head with the Cordish model and it will fail.

In reality, I'm more concerned about the impact on Doro. Seems like Cordish is a corporate play on the same market and same type of tenants.

The thought of attracting suburbanites is the same but the retail mix is totally different. Festival marketplaces were pretty much enclosed malls (without department stores as anchors) with the same specialty retailers you'd find in Rouse's suburban regional malls. Cordish's urban projects tend to be dominated with themed destination restaurants and bars clustered together around live entertainment. The common link between the two are destination restaurants and live entertainment. An example of them co-existing is Power Plant Live! and Harborplace in Baltimore.  Harborplace recently changed their tenant mix to go more cultural (replaced retailers with a Ripley's) and food hall with a few destination restaurants. That's the model the Landing should take, IMO.

It sounds like these kinds of talks are where it might help for the city or at least someone to bring Cordish and Sleiman into a room and say, "Great! We love these ideas, and we're excited about how Jacksonville can grow. We'd really like for these two centers to have a place in our entertainment market, and so we're just floating some ideas on what we hope will help keep things cohesive." Or something of that nature.

[thelakelander]

The mayor's office is pretty much done with Sleiman. Sleiman is better off doing his shopping center on his own....just like he would plan any of his other properties. Know the market and do something that can be supported by it.

[jaxnyc79]

The mayor's office is pretty much done with Sleiman. Sleiman is better off doing his shopping center on his own....just like he would plan any of his other properties. Know the market and do something that can be supported by it.

Didn't the city threaten to terminate the lease within 30 days in their filing?

[JaxAvondale]

The mayor's office is pretty much done with Sleiman. Sleiman is better off doing his shopping center on his own....just like he would plan any of his other properties. Know the market and do something that can be supported by it.

Does Sleiman have the financing to transform the Landing?

[thelakelander]

He's got financing to build centers significantly larger than the Landing in the suburbs. It shouldn't take a ton to clean up the Landing. Structurally it's fine. The tenant mix just needs to evolve.