Khan interested in developing shipyards

[thelakelander]

The mayor's office is pretty much done with Sleiman. Sleiman is better off doing his shopping center on his own....just like he would plan any of his other properties. Know the market and do something that can be supported by it.

Didn't the city threaten to terminate the lease within 30 days in their filing?

I'm not sure. Doesn't matter anyway. Sleiman will have that property until he decides to sell it.

[marcuscnelson]

So in that case, does that mean the city will turn its focus completely to Jax Live! and focus on getting that built? Because it sounds like if the city is ready to wash its hands of Sleiman, they might as well just tell him he's on his own and work on something they might have more ease getting done.

[thelakelander]

Curry has already said they're done with Sleiman. They're tied up in court now but outside of that, there's nothing legally stopping Sleiman from doing something with the Landing's buildings now. However, it may be complicated in that the city owns the land surrounding it. So Sleiman can fix the buildings but will COJ clean up the courtyard, docks, riverwalk, etc.?

[vicupstate]

From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Good ole vic.

Duval Live! will get built, be incredibly successful . . . and vic will still be stuttering that none of this makes any sense. Had they only copied Greenville . . . .

The Landing is in no way, shape or form a similar structure. It is something we've never seen in this market, and it may be something that seriously affects the ability of this city to pull the casual pass-through traffic off of Interstate 95 and convince them to stay a day or three.

KenFSU described adequately in Reply #520 what I base my skepticism on.     

As far as the other Cordish projects, they were built in locations that were vibrant to begin with. I can't speak to Louisville in that regard but Cordish was merely building on the vibrant foundations that were already established in Philly, St. Louis and Baltimore. Arlington had MLB to work off of. As Lake stated JAX will never have MLB. 

As Lake alluded to, the Landing was retail oriented originally, but it most definitely did try to reposition itself as the destination entertainment/restaurant complex for DT and the region as a whole, later in it's life. Neither proposition worked because unlike those other Cordish projects, it was the pioneer not building on a well established environment. 

The only way I can see Cordish doing this project is with very substantial public subsidy. And like the Landing even that may not be enough to make it successful. Even then, it is hard to see 250k SF in the initial construction.

JAX is trying to walk before it crawls and I have never seen that work.

BTW, I would LOVE to be proven wrong on the Sports district becoming a massive success, because it would benefit me personally.

It would take a very sharp person to thread a very thin needle to make the Landing succeed if Cordish is a mile away. Lunch alone is not sufficient or the Food Court would not have struggled as it has. I don't see Sleiman as that person and whoever that person might be, they would probbaly not want to even try if they didn't own the dirt underneath.   

[RattlerGator]

BTW, I would LOVE to be proven wrong on the Sports district becoming a massive success, because it would benefit me personally.

Vic, I don't doubt this at all even if you wouldn't personally benefit. But you do for some weird reason consistently underestimate Shad Khan and Mark Lamping. That's a bigtime mistake.

It would take a very sharp person to thread a very thin needle to make the Landing succeed if Cordish is a mile away. Lunch alone is not sufficient or the Food Court would not have struggled as it has. I don't see Sleiman as that person and whoever that person might be, they would probbaly not want to even try if they didn't own the dirt underneath.   

Sleiman needs to work out a deal with the city and move the hell on.

[Steve]

I'll say this: That area of Philadelphia isn't historically known for it's vibrancy. Prior to Xfinity Live it was stadiums and parking lots off of I-95. The way Jacksonville's sports complex is (located close to downtown but not in it) was the trend really, and Football really hasn't changed that trend in many places due to the huge parking need for comparatively so few days of the need.

Now, to the points made above there is likely a sporting event at either Citizens Bank Park (Phillies), Lincoln Financial Field (Eagles), or the Wells Fargo Center (Flyers and 76ers). With all 4 major sports something is going on nearly every night that will draw 15k minimum and much more if it's a football game or the Phillies are in contention.

My feeling is it depends on the mix of things. Jacksonville's urban core doesn't have a decent sports bar so that could be an immediate draw. However, my feeling is it needs to be more than Bars and Restaurants. Other challenges include the connection to the rest of downtown. It's not a major distance, but it's far enough that walkability isn't great (especially given what the walk looks like - Bay is okay but the rest is awful).

Regardless of all of this - Khan seems to be interested in dumping his money into it, and I think that if he has full control of the site (and by that, I think you sell him the dirt and make it truly his), then I think he spends his way into making it work. I'm sure he will ask the city for something. So, I think it overall depends on how much he asks the city for.

This is where whatever JTA is going to do with the Skyway would be helpful. I realize the astronomical cost of an elevated connection, but the Bay Street Leg is likely the one place where I actually see benefit, with a stop at the future convention center site and at the shipyards before a final stop at the Sports Complex.

[thelakelander]

I wouldn't count on JTA making or breaking this. It will take more than a 12 passenger AV shuttle bus to have real impact on its feasibility.

[thelakelander]

Rattler, Sleiman just needs to run the Landing like a shopping center. Fill it with basic stuff that the downtown market lacks and it will be fine. McDonald's, IHOP, Waffle House, Office Depot, Walgreens, Hooters, Twin Peaks, 7-11 etc. Then repurpose the food court concept as a small food hall. Who cares if it doesn't have tenants that attract suburbanites? Fill it with that stuff and I bet it will be more viable than a themed entertainment center at Everbank Field.

[Tacachale]

I would expect the Jags will have done their homework on this and will pick things that'll be successful. I also don't see a reason to think it'll really be 250,000 square feet simply because the lot is that size. There may be a major garage component to make up for lost Jags parking, they may just be leaving some of the space, etc.

That said, I think the Landing comparison is more apt than not. It's the same concept updated for the retail reality of 2018, which is less focused on shops and such, and more on food and entertainment. That is, the things that still work at the Landing, and which would be the Landing's focus already if the owners ever decided to update. Also like the Landing, long-term success will be determined by things like design, management, and the health of Downtown in general.

[thelakelander]

Even within the restaurant, entertainment and dining realm, there's diversity. Neither the Landing or Khan's project will be able to effectively corner that market. Khan could put up SJTC and it doesn't mean there's no niche for the Landing. Its future will depend on management's ability and desire to capitalize on the market and its built in assets. Norfolk is a good example of this. Waterside couldn't compete head to head with the regional mall two blocks away. However, the new Cordish revamp (which did include city money) carves out a niche in the marketplace for what is now known as Waterside District. There's a retail niche the Landing could provide that a self contained entertainment district will never provide. The big question is if Sleiman will be willing to spend his own funds on a true remodeling job without public incentives?

[Wacca Pilatka]

Rattler, Sleiman just needs to run the Landing like a shopping center. Fill it with basic stuff that the downtown market lacks and it will be fine. McDonald's, IHOP, Waffle House, Office Depot, Walgreens, Hooters, Twin Peaks, 7-11 etc. Then repurpose the food court concept as a small food hall. Who cares if it doesn't have tenants that attract suburbanites? Fill it with that stuff and I bet it will be more viable than a themed entertainment center at Everbank Field.

Lake, agree with your analysis and Waterside in Norfolk is an apt comparison. 

If the Landing makes that change, I assume it'd still make sense for it to better integrate the alley space at the foot of Hogan, between the Landing and the T-U Center, and market it for waterfront dining?

[KenFSU]

The big question is if Sleiman will be willing to spend his own funds on a true remodeling job without public incentives?

I think he'll want a similar deal to the one that Alvin Brown offered, where the city ponies up for all the infrastructure improvements around the perimeter of the Landing (landscaping, riverwalk, courtyard, etc.) and he covers the structural elements. Unlike Brown and his $12 million though, I don't see Curry giving Sleiman 12 cents.

[Tacachale]

The big question is if Sleiman will be willing to spend his own funds on a true remodeling job without public incentives?

I think he'll want a similar deal to the one that Alvin Brown offered, where the city ponies up for all the infrastructure improvements around the perimeter of the Landing (landscaping, riverwalk, courtyard, etc.) and he covers the structural elements. Unlike Brown and his $12 million though, I don't see Curry giving Sleiman 12 cents.

Correct. Yes, the Landing *could* survive this and other setbacks. We haven't seen much indication from Sleiman that they'll try, without a big check from the city.

[thelakelander]

The big question is if Sleiman will be willing to spend his own funds on a true remodeling job without public incentives?

I think he'll want a similar deal to the one that Alvin Brown offered, where the city ponies up for all the infrastructure improvements around the perimeter of the Landing (landscaping, riverwalk, courtyard, etc.) and he covers the structural elements. Unlike Brown and his $12 million though, I don't see Curry giving Sleiman 12 cents.

Well that's the problem. I'm not of the belief that Brown's plan made any sense or that the Landing needs to be torn down, bridge ramps removed along with $12 million in public incentives. If that's the only solution Sleiman is willing to pursue, then the Landing is out of luck. I'm talking about remodeling the existing structure and filling it with a different tenant mix.

[vicupstate]

Until there are more permanant residents DT, or at least DT is truly a destination for locals, I don't see that retail would work just off of office workers. It has never made a profit and brand name stores left even with reduced or free rent. The original 'it's about time' plans for the Landing were the best yet proposed, and that was because it added condos, offices and a hotel to what was already there as will as a rehab.