Khan interested in developing shipyards

[JaxAvondale]

From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

[vicupstate]

From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

[KenFSU]

Saw this comment on the T-U story.



Curious if anyone had any memories/further information on this Music Shed?

Doing some Googling, I'm finding some references to a "Riverside Music Shed" that hosted a few shows (Blink 182, Silverchair, Bob Dylan, Widespread Panic) in 1999.

Was this the bandshell at Metro Park, or a different, short-lived venue elsewhere?

[jaxnyc79]

Saw this comment on the T-U story.



Curious if anyone had any memories/further information on this Music Shed?

Doing some Googling, I'm finding some references to a "Riverside Music Shed" that hosted a few shows (Blink 182, Silverchair, Bob Dylan, Widespread Panic) in 1999.

Was this the bandshell at Metro Park, or a different, short-lived venue elsewhere?

Even if the Lot J project doesn't include residential, I feel it makes Met Park and Shipyards and other parts of the area much more appealing for mid-rise residential.  I'm assuming this will include food venues, bars, and retail?

[vicupstate]

The Music Shed was on teh Shipyards site. It was pretty much a shed too. Search the T-U website and you will proably find some articles.  Noise from the concerts raised complaints from residents in St. Nicholas, the neighborhood across the river from the sheds.   

[KenFSU]

Even if the Lot J project doesn't include residential, I feel it makes Met Park and Shipyards and other parts of the area much more appealing for mid-rise residential.  I'm assuming this will include food venues, bars, and retail?

^Yeah, like Ennis posted a page or two back, if it's a Cordish development (which all signs point to), then it most likely include a major sports bar, space for live music, and a collection of other restaurants and bars. Doubt they'll be much retail, beyond maybe a Jacksonville sports (Jags, Jumbo Shrimp, Icemen, Armada, Giants, UNF, etc.) shop.

Here's Cordish's sizzle reel for similar developments they've done around the country:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqzZpSLdqxM

One thing that I do like about Cordish is that there's a conscious effort made with each of their developments to make them uniquely local. I could see a Safe Harbor/Jumbo Shrimp restaurant, or an M-Shack/Medure concept, or a Black Sheep/Insetta restaurant, or something from Forking Amazing fitting in really nicely. Ditto with any of our local breweries. Ironic that this same local concept may have helped turn the Landing around.

And you better believe that, if this project gets built, it's going to be a death blow to the Jacksonville Landing as we currently know it. It would take 100% of business for Florida-Georgia from the Landing. It would greatly cannibalize New Year's Eve, as Cordish venues typically host massive NYE parties. It would steal gameday business from visiting fans, who still think the Landing is the place to go. It would even steal concert business from the Landing, though it feels like they've slowly phased out live music.

[KenFSU]

P.S. If you look at Cordish's Live developments around the country, they've got their tropes. You can pretty much guess what a Jacksonville Live would look like. There's bound to be a giant central sports bar with a 30'+ HD television. Other restaurants and bars surrounding it. You can bet your ass there will be a mechanical bull somewhere. Balconies. Live music venue. Probably a summer country music series. A new year's eve ball drop. Seasonal events. Family days in the summer. Etc.

Texas Live ($250 million; cost split evenly between Texas Ranger and Cordish, plus $50 million in public infrastructure from city):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N9Tm7ft9Xo

Ballpark Village ($100 million; financed by Cordish and the Cardinals; public subsidy via TIF + $25 million in tax credits):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlrFmGIQMk

Xfinity Live ($150 million; financed by Cordish and Comcast; public subsidy via TIF):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOmaVFFT9p8

4th Street Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9rGtIoMBY

Powerplant Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvv4w2sGF0c

[TimmyB]

P.S. If you look at Cordish's Live developments around the country, they've got their tropes. You can pretty much guess what a Jacksonville Live would look like. There's bound to be a giant central sports bar with a 30'+ HD television. Other restaurants and bars surrounding it. You can bet your ass there will be a mechanical bull somewhere. Balconies. Live music venue. Probably a summer country music series. A new year's eve ball drop. Seasonal events. Family days in the summer. Etc.

Texas Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N9Tm7ft9Xo

Ballpark Village:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlrFmGIQMk

Xfinity Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOmaVFFT9p8

4th Street Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9rGtIoMBY

Powerplant Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvv4w2sGF0c

Serious question, Ken.  Most of these others are in "major league" cities, where if you look at BB (81), FB (, hockey (41), and BkB (41), there are over half of the days in a year with a home game, and that's not counting pre-season, post-season, etc.  You are going to have 15,000 to 80,000 people in that area for each of those.  Add to that a great selection of concerts happening at the 15,000 seat arena, you've got 250 to 300 nights a year covered.  We don't have that.  We've got the Jags.  We have no MLB, NBA, NHL franchises.  Those teams will draw between 1,000 and 3,000 per game at our minor league level. 

Do you think this will be successful in this town?  I am excited by the prospect of having something worth going to down there, but I imagine I would've felt the same way when they built the Landings, if I had been here back then.  I'm just sensing that there won't be enough "big" nightly events to make it fly.

[jaxjaguar]

^The Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville were designed to be able to expand should the time come. MLB commissioner has also said within the last year, they're considering expanding. Of all of the major sports I could see Jacksonville supporting MLB the most (football). If we did land an MLB team this would end up looking like all of the cities mentioned above...

[TimmyB]

^The Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville were designed to be able to expand should the time come. MLB commissioner has also said within the last year, they're considering expanding. Of all of the major sports I could see Jacksonville supporting MLB the most (football). If we did land an MLB team this would end up looking like all of the cities mentioned above...

That would be the one that would HAVe to happen, IMO.  That covers almost 1/4 of the days in the year, which is a great start.  Don't know if we have a realistic chance, but I'll keep my reserved optimism on this one. 

[KenFSU]

P.S. If you look at Cordish's Live developments around the country, they've got their tropes. You can pretty much guess what a Jacksonville Live would look like. There's bound to be a giant central sports bar with a 30'+ HD television. Other restaurants and bars surrounding it. You can bet your ass there will be a mechanical bull somewhere. Balconies. Live music venue. Probably a summer country music series. A new year's eve ball drop. Seasonal events. Family days in the summer. Etc.

Texas Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N9Tm7ft9Xo

Ballpark Village:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlrFmGIQMk

Xfinity Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOmaVFFT9p8

4th Street Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9rGtIoMBY

Powerplant Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvv4w2sGF0c

Serious question, Ken.  Most of these others are in "major league" cities, where if you look at BB (81), FB (, hockey (41), and BkB (41), there are over half of the days in a year with a home game, and that's not counting pre-season, post-season, etc.  You are going to have 15,000 to 80,000 people in that area for each of those.  Add to that a great selection of concerts happening at the 15,000 seat arena, you've got 250 to 300 nights a year covered.  We don't have that.  We've got the Jags.  We have no MLB, NBA, NHL franchises.  Those teams will draw between 1,000 and 3,000 per game at our minor league level. 

Do you think this will be successful in this town?  I am excited by the prospect of having something worth going to down there, but I imagine I would've felt the same way when they built the Landings, if I had been here back then.  I'm just sensing that there won't be enough "big" nightly events to make it fly.

My gut sure says no.

Most of these Cordish venues are open 7 days a week, from 11:00 AM to 2:00 AM.

Not sure who's hanging out at the Sports complex until 2:00 AM on weeknights, and the lack of transit doesn't even make it a convenient lunch spot for downtown workers. And even on non-NFL gamedays/events, we're not talking the 18,000-40,000 visitors flooding in for baseball, hockey, or the NBA, we're talking 3,000 for the Icemen, 5,000 maybe for the Shrimp, 4,000 for concerts, etc.

250,000 sf is huge.

Will happily be proven wrong, but it's a tough ask to pack that place every night.

[jaxnyc79]

Remind me though, what dense, walkable "entertainment-focused" districts does Jacksonville have currently?  I think it's high time Jax had a product like this.  I actually believe a "modernization" of the Landing would also be a big draw, but Sleiman isn't the guy to do it.  Also, it makes more sense for this district to be around the Stadium and Arena and Daily's Place than the Landing's location.  Generally, people aren't looking for loud, boisterous entertainment just before settling down to the Opera or Symphony.

Also, given Lot J is amidst a sea of parking, there will be the perception that parking is available and just that perception alone could draw more people here than might be enticed to forage for parking around the landing.

[RattlerGator]

From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Good ole vic.

Duval Live! will get built, be incredibly successful . . . and vic will still be stuttering that none of this makes any sense. Had they only copied Greenville . . . .

The Landing is in no way, shape or form a similar structure. It is something we've never seen in this market, and it may be something that seriously affects the ability of this city to pull the casual pass-through traffic off of Interstate 95 and convince them to stay a day or three.

[KenFSU]

From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Good ole vic.

Duval Live! will get built, be incredibly successful . . . and vic will still be stuttering that none of this makes any sense. Had they only copied Greenville . . . .

The Landing is in no way, shape or form a similar structure. It is something we've never seen in this market, and it may be something that seriously affects the ability of this city to pull the casual pass-through traffic off of Interstate 95 and convince them to stay a day or three.

Respectfully disagree.

There's no fundamental difference between the big-box entertainment complexes that Cordish is building in the 2010's and the big-box festival marketplaces that Rouse specialized in back in the 80's.

Its just a slightly more modern take on urban renewal in a box.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

...not talking the 18,000-40,000 visitors flooding in for baseball, hockey, or the NBA, we're talking 3,000 for the Icemen, 5,000 maybe for the Shrimp, 4,000 for concerts, etc.

250,000 sf is huge.

Will happily be proven wrong, but it's a tough ask to pack that place every night.

3 Words:

Ex!

Eff!

El!