Khan interested in developing shipyards

[tufsu1]

don't worry Sunbeam....the DIA will have input in whatever happens at trhe Shipyards...and likely the Office of Economic Development (OED) will as well

[thelakelander]

I'd like to see development that would include something along the lines of including something like the Pike Street Market in Seattle or Girradelli Square in San Francisco or Harbor Place in Balimore. This town needs to grow up.

You've basically described the original concept for the Landing.

[simms3]

It would be nice if the Shipyards were developed.It certainly is an eyesore now and proof of how backward Jacksonville is. Whats with the half completed highrise at Berkman Plaza?
I'd like to see development that would include something along the lines of including something like the Pike Street Market in Seattle or Girradelli Square in San Francisco or Harbor Place in Balimore. This town needs to grow up.

The question then is do you want a touristy waterfront or a waterfront used, lived in, and appreciated by locals?  Maybe on a small level the two mix, but typically as in the concepts you described they do not mix.  I'm working on Ghirardelli Square now as my company has it under contract , so I'm intimately familiar with that property.  I do not want a similar concept (which is impossible because the tourist draw of GS is its 100+ year old name, its history, what it is, etc) for the Shipyards waterfront.

[vicupstate]

Ideally, the Shipyards would be akin to Baltimore's Inner Harbor.  A tourist attraction but with residential units, office and neighborhood support commercial uses included. 

But the office and residential demand is not there yet, and therefore no neighborhood support demand either. 

[fieldafm]

Ideally, the Shipyards would be akin to Baltimore's Inner Harbor.  A tourist attraction but with residential units, office and neighborhood support commercial uses included. 

But the office and residential demand is not there yet, and therefore no neighborhood support demand either.

Why not just sell the land underneath the Landing and let him go forward with his plan?




Still think that finishing the riverwalk, cutting out public spaces and splitting up and creating seperate parcels for the Shipyards is the ideal scenario.  If a developer wants to the entire property (don't see why they would), they could buy all the parcels.  However, not relying on a mega project (three of which have already failed on this site) would allow businesses to open much like what happened along Milwaukee's riverfront:








Or South Boston's Seaport District:

[thelakelander]

Yeah, i'm not sure the Shipyards could ever be as akin to Baltimore's Inner Harbor as the riverfront between the Main and Acosta Bridges should be. It's not located in an area where downtown and several dense inner city neighborhoods can integrate well or funnel traffic into it on a daily basis. Jax would be better figuring something out with Sleiman and the Landing and finding ways to energize the riverfront by upgrading and adding to existing amenities within a compact centralized area.

[mtraininjax]

I always find it interesting to see how people dream about what Jacksonville can be like..........with other people's money.

[thelakelander]

In reality, the dreams never come true because they aren't market rate based.  That's why fieldafm's suggestion makes sense:

Still think that finishing the riverwalk, cutting out public spaces and splitting up and creating seperate parcels for the Shipyards is the ideal scenario.  If a developer wants to the entire property (don't see why they would), they could buy all the parcels.  However, not relying on a mega project (three of which have already failed on this site) would allow businesses to open much like what happened along Milwaukee's riverfront:

If the public wants riverfront greenspace, then we should carve out what we want and fund it ourselves.  You can do what Columbus did with the Commons and create a situation where you could incrementally build around your designated greenspace in the future as the demand is created.  Sounds much better than giving public subsidies for mega development dreams that don't make sense with private money.

[vicupstate]

I totally agree that revamping the Landing area makes more sense, and should come first.  But the Inner Harbor is pretty big and if overlaided onto the Northbank, would cover the Landing footprint and the Shipyards as well.   Like Baltimore, it would happen in phases as demand warranted.   

Setting aside the public areas and executing those plans, would increase the interest in the remainding area.  I agree that what's left wouldn't have to be sold as one parcel. 

[vicupstate]

I always find it interesting to see how people dream about what Jacksonville can be like..........with other people's money.

With taxpayer's money as well, considering how much of that has already been spent on said property. 

[exnewsman]

Terry Casey just did an interview with Jags President Mark Lamping for the Making Moves TV show. He told Terry they consider the Shipyards the "front door" of the Sports Complex and would like to see something dynamic in that location. Then and only then would he expect to hear talk about Skyway expansion (or some other form of transit) into that area.

[simms3]

1)  Toney Sleiman does not need to own the land under the Landing to develop it.  Personally, I don't think he should, and just from my experience working on similar projects and knowing of similar projects the ground lease should not be an obstacle.  The market is.  Toney's inexperience at this kind of deal could be (a proposal of his size should definitely have an experienced partner, or two).  Nothing is going to happen there and you can blame who you want, but a creative, willing, experienced developer and a market would get something done there.

2) I can't speak at all to Baltimore's Inner Harbor not having been there and only having read about it and seen pics, but I have been to Seaport Boston and my company has made a couple of really large investments there within the past year.  This is not a comp for Jax in any way shape or form, nor is it even a "vibrant" area.  Along with Cambridge it's the hottest office market in the city right now, especially for large biotech campuses, and then there is also a good bit of creative office space, which we invested in.  There is a good lobster shack on the waterfront there just across the canal from the FiDi with live music though

3) I have been to Milwaukee's 3rd Ward a few times as I have a good friend in the city (plus Summerfest is right nearby ) - this area is really cool, but it is a bit of an irony.  It has become sort of the city's most exclusive area and most of those buildings are filled with million dollar condos.  Baby boomers have come back in full force and congregated here (moving from the lakefront or surrounding suburbs).  Plus most of the buildings were in place 100+ year old warehouses.  Not a real comp (plus the layout is very different than Shipyards).


I believe the comps to watch are in San Francisco Bay.  I have mentioned a large project in Oakland before, which is a bit of a boring project though it's $1.5B waterfront former shipyards site redevelopment.  Also, in San Francisco there are two waterfront sites south of the city that were former shipyards that are slowly being redeveloped.  I'll start posting links to things there - these are really good comps.  (and no I'm not talking about Mission Bay, which is a waterfront redevelopment scheme like Seaport in Boston - that's not a good comp)

Forest City's Pier 70

http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2013/01/pier_70_plans_unveiled_with_1000_housing_units_included.html

Forest City has unveiled their plans for the redevelopment of the 69-acre Pier 70 site with a proposal for over two million square feet of office space, 275,000 feet for "artisans, retailers, designers, and boutique manufacturers," and up to 1,000 new housing units.

Phase one of the project, which would commence in 2016, includes the conversion of the hisoric 100,000-square-foot Building 2 into about 100 units of housing and the conversion of the historic 160,000-square-foot Building 12 into "a loft-style creative office building with a ground floor marketplace that spills out into the public plaza," the Market Square.

Oakland's Brooklyn Basin Waterfront

http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2013/04/oaklands_66acre_brooklyn_basin_development_finally_fund.html

In the works for over a decade, Signature Development Group's 66-acre Brooklyn Basin development on Oakland's waterfront has been funded by way of a $1.5 billion investment from China's Zarsion Holdings Group and is slated to break ground next year.

The development of the former industrial site adjacent to Oakland's Jack London Square will yield 3,100 housing units, 200,000 square feet of retail/commercial, and 30 acres of waterfront parks, trails and open space along with new marinas and renewed wetlands.

The project will be built in phases and likley take around a decade to complete, eventually connecting Brooklyn Basin to Lake Merritt by way of bike and pedestrian paths. Click either of the images above, or an aerial of the area as it looks today, to enlarge.

Regarding the Shipyards piers - they are really too narrow to build anything on them, which of course would make them that much more interesting.  As everyone who has recently built/building something on piers in SF can atest (new Warriors Arena, new Exploratorium, Anchor Steam brewery, new cruise terminal, etc etc)...the costs to structurally repair/boost the piers themselves is always way more than anticipated.

[bbush904]

Has anyone been to Chelsea Piers on the west side of Manhattan? I think this would be perfect for the shipyards. It is described as:
"The Chelsea Piers Sports & Entertainment Complex is a 28-acre waterfront sports village located between 17th and 23rd Streets along Manhattan's Hudson River. This $120 million, privately-financed project opened in 1995, transforming four historic, but long-neglected, piers into a major center for public recreation and waterfront access. "

They have a driving range, fitness center, AstroTurf fields, bowling, ice rink, restaurants, etc.

http://www.chelseapiers.com/

[JayBird]

Has anyone been to Chelsea Piers on the west side of Manhattan? I think this would be perfect for the shipyards. It is described as:
"The Chelsea Piers Sports & Entertainment Complex is a 28-acre waterfront sports village located between 17th and 23rd Streets along Manhattan's Hudson River. This $120 million, privately-financed project opened in 1995, transforming four historic, but long-neglected, piers into a major center for public recreation and waterfront access. "

They have a driving range, fitness center, AstroTurf fields, bowling, ice rink, restaurants, etc.

http://www.chelseapiers.com/

I spend a lot of time here, and love it. But, as much as I love Jacksonville and want to see it prosper, this is not it. Chelsea Piers works because the extremely dense area in which it is located, most people outside of Chelsea, TriBeCa, Greenwich Village wouldn't even be able to tell you what is all there because it isn't designed for them. The recreation portions are attractive because it is year round opportunities in an area that is lacking in like space. The driving range stays busy because why bother driving out into Long Island or into Jersey when you can go there? All of those factors would not equal up in Jacksonville where they have plenty of open space, even though they don't use it well. Also, the upstairs of Chelsea Piers and the Marina are what keep them in the black. CBS Sports studios are there as well as Studio59 (home of the sets for "Law and Order TV series shows") and the fact that it is the only place in Manhattan where yachts 180'-400' can dock. If one of those three things were removed, Chelsea Piers would be bankrupt within 3 years.  As it is, Hudson River Park (in which Chelsea Piers is located) is already realizing that recreation and concession retail alone cannot support itself.

I think the best use of this site would be mixed use with residential/office/retail with park space for recreation. Even better if it could attach to Metro Park to utilize that. There are a lot of great ideas for this site, it is just going to take an investor willing to take a risk and the City willing to develop the site to its potential.

[edjax]

The Oakland project to me seems like the most comparable and realistic.