NSA Collecting Phone Records of MILLIONS of Verizon Customers Daily

[I-10east]

I just don't see how anyone with a firm grasp on world history can say something like "the only ones who should have something to fear are people who have something to hide." This is reckless, and oblivious to centuries of horrific abuses that inevitability follow a government obtaining sweeping surveillance powers over its population. I've read your posts for years, you seem very smart, but how can you honestly believe that demanding privacy means "having something to hide." And further, you can't possibly suggest that there is anything wrong or sinister about wanting to keep your personal affairs private.

Thanks for being cordial Ken. Maybe all of this snooping on people is too unethical. I'm definitely not the voice of overall American affairs on this thing. Myself personally, I can care less about public cameras in the street, the Illuminati with some secret plan of world domination, Big Brother interested in my personal business etc. IMO, we all have became a nation of overly fear mongering. I guess that I (a) don't care about alot of personal business being discreet (short of a criminal going into my account, identity theft etc) (b) I'm not an overly complex person with extreme political views (eco-activist, rights on political organizations that aren't in the interest of America etc. In the eyes of Big Brother, I'm very uninteresting, and that's a good thing. 

[NotNow]

Then when a terrorist attack happens, the same people who's bitching about this phone tap crap would be saying why wasn't more things done to protect Americans. Even though it's safe to say that Demosthenes's post was pretty vulgar, I agree with alot what he said. People need to quit acting like their lives are so damn important, that the government really cares about their meaningless conversations. The only ones who should have something to fear are people who have something to hide, terrorists, etc. I really believe that some things are best left unknown. Be in denial, but many controversial government practices (droning, torture etc) saved countless American lives. So what's better, an a-hole terrorist getting worked over in a dark room somewhere, or a nuked America for the sake of ethics?   

I just don't see how anyone with a firm grasp on world history can say something like "the only ones who should have something to fear are people who have something to hide." This is reckless, and oblivious to centuries of horrific abuses that inevitability follow a government obtaining sweeping surveillance powers over its population. I've read your posts for years, you seem very smart, but how can you honestly believe that demanding privacy means "having something to hide." And further, you can't possibly suggest that there is anything wrong or sinister about wanting to keep your personal affairs private. Is it Uncle Sam's business if you buy viagra online? If you're out of town and have a steamy phone or Skype session with your wife? If you search the internet for embarrassing things? If you've got a particular fetish? If your daughter has an abortion? If you're unhappy with the President or your Congressman?

NO ONE is getting nuked or not nuked because the government is archiving what activist or political groups you and your loved ones "like" on Facebook.

Watch just the first 45 seconds of the below clip, from the reporter who broke the Guardian story that set this whole thing off, and tell me doesn't send a chill down your spine:

http://www.youtube.com/v/pHRMxLCfU8A

Link is above doesn't work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRMxLCfU8A

How is this necessary?

The implications are just SO MUCH greater than giving the government blanket access to your "meaningless conversations."

Finally, here's a great quote from Reddit yesterday that is a great counter to the "nothing to hide" argument. Time and time and time again throughout history, this rings true.

I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.

I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:

1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.

Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.

With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.

2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, fuck it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.

3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.
You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.

4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fuck you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fucking wound on my leg?"

"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.

Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.

You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.

This all happened in the country where I live.

You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.

Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?

You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?

Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?

I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.

Interesting stuff Ken, thanks.   

I-10, there are hard won historical lessons here.  I encourage you to read the Constitution and the Federalist Papers.  These documents establish the United State's governments basis in personal liberty and limited government.  It has been perverted and misunderstood many times, and our founding fathers would not recognize the country we live in today.  Only by returning to the fundementals established in these documents can we ensure a free America for our children and grandchildren. 

[Midway ®]

When you are a hammer, you want everything to be a nail.

But that aside, here is an excerpt from an article that appeared in the chronicles of Higher Education entitled "why privacy matters", which you will have to go to in order to read the full article because I will not repost such long articles here.

When the nothing-to-hide argument is unpacked, and its underlying assumptions examined and challenged, we can see how it shifts the debate to its terms, then draws power from its unfair advantage. The nothing-to-hide argument speaks to some problems but not to others. It represents a singular and narrow way of conceiving of privacy, and it wins by excluding consideration of the other problems often raised with government security measures. When engaged directly, the nothing-to-hide argument can ensnare, for it forces the debate to focus on its narrow understanding of privacy. But when confronted with the plurality of privacy problems implicated by government data collection and use beyond surveillance and disclosure, the nothing-to-hide argument, in the end, has nothing to say.

http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/

[JeffreyS]

Okay if we're done arguing who is Inconsistent now from where they have been passed even though we agree nowââ,¬Â¦.

I would like us to change the conversation little bit to where Do we draw the line now between the government monitoring keeping its eyes open so to speak and investigating where there is a need for probable clause.

And I hate to give it a week start but I'm not exactly sure where that line should be.

[NotNow]

I-10, there are hard won historical lessons here.  I encourage you to read the Constitution and the Federalist Papers.  These documents establish the United State's governments basis in personal liberty and limited government.  It has been perverted and misunderstood many times, and our founding fathers would not recognize the country we live in today.  Only by returning to the fundementals established in these documents can we ensure a free America for our children and grandchildren.

And yet everything that you have cheered and supported has led us to the near police state in which we now live.

How do you explain that, Notnow?

I have cheered and supported the Constitution.  Your continuing misrepresentation of my views is not welcome.  If you question something that I said, or want to make an issue of it, then post the quote.  Don't presume to speak for me, and I will not do so for you.

Am I to assume from your earlier posts in this thread that you do not believe that the IRS abused their governmental power?

Are you still an Obama supporter and if so, how do you explain his policies which are directly opposed to his campaign rhetoric?

Will you offer anything to the conversation other than personal attacks using your own ideas of what other posters and I have supported?   Or is your intention simply to divert the focus of the conversation?  I believe you used the term "political hack".   

As for the subject of the thread, I can not support a data mining program as I do not trust this administration to follow both the intent or the letter of the law.  The legal constraints against abuse are obviously not sufficient and any law allowing such activity must now be abolished in the wake of these abuses.  I don't believe the PRISM project is authorized by the current law, and should be abolished as well.  As for invasion of content in any electronic format in a DOMESTIC case, then the Constitution applies and a warrant should be obtained from the courts in the normal manner. 

Jeffrey, I hope this answers your question. 

[NotNow]

As I have repeatedly asked...if you wish to take issue with any opinion I have expressed, please quote me.  This habit of telling me what I think is annoying and rude.  Use those date mining skills and at least attempt to quote me out of context!  At least then there is a semblance of credibility to your criticisms.

How about that Obama administration?   Working out like you dreamed? 

[I-10east]

You really are this deluded arent you?  Like, its not a schtick is it?

Not a single thing you said in this post was true.  Nothing.  Not even the pronouns or indefinite articles.

But you just forge ahead with your comments anyways. 

Astounding.

Your ability to not acknowledge facts while trying to ramp up the benefit of your argument is what's truly astounding. Yeah, keep on the Matador role going off course, condescendingly knit-picking with my use of pro nouns, adverbs etc; That only for the benefit of your argument also of course. So what your are gonna do about this Stephen? Go to your congressman? Go off the grid? Employ a fleet of carrier pigeons? Maybe hire some OBL-style couriers? What really 'scares me' is outside threats to this country (extreme Islam etc.) but of course talking about that on this thread is only an unpopular inconvenient truth.

[I-10east]

It has been perverted and misunderstood many times, and our founding fathers would not recognize the country we live in today.

With all due respect NotNow, many complex issues (national security etc) in the world that we live in today, our forefathers could have not foreseen.

[NotNow]

It has been perverted and misunderstood many times, and our founding fathers would not recognize the country we live in today.

With all due respect NotNow, many complex issues (national security etc) in the world that we live in today, our forefathers could have not foreseen.

I understand your concern, and we certainly need to use modern techniques against modern threats.  But I believe that the truths of individual rights and small central government found in our Constitution are timeless.  The best government is STILL local government.  I favor using our federal assets and diplomatic corps to further the interests of the United States.  I am not under any illusions as to the designs of the current threats to the US.  As I have stated many times, I believe that any person or person who conspires, attempts, or successfully kills US citizens  or conduct terror should be dealt with aggressively.  I DO NOT believe that the Constitutional rights of US citizens need be, or could be, ignored, suspended, or modified in any way.  These views are not diametrically opposed. 

We are forgetting some of the lessons we should have learned from history.  If military force is warranted, use it.  Completely dominate and defeat your enemy.  "Police actions" or "graduated war" are prelims to defeat or endless conflict.  Asymmetric warfare is nothing new.  Study the history of such conflict and utilize that knowledge to win.  Winning saves lives (at least American lives) in the long run. 

There have always been, and there will always be threats to our nation and our way of life.  Emergency measures may be needed on a rare basis and should be immediately withdrawn upon successful mitigation of the threat.  But we should maintain the freedom and responsibility gained through the sacrifices of those Americans who fought the fight before us. 

[TheCat]

[NotNow]

How about that Obama administration?   Working out like you dreamed? 

To be honest, The Obama Administration has performed better than I originally assumed that they would be able to.  And the opposition has been much much worse than I actually dreamed possible.  Even after the humiliating spectacle of the Clinton Blow Job Impeachment that made me realize that the Republicans were going down a strange road indeed.

I am proud of the country for choosing an unknown third way over the diseased power system that the Delay/Frist/Gingrich/Bush years produced. 

Im happy that we have made moves towards a rational health care policy, im happy that the racist anti immigrant mayhem has been confronted and pushed back.  Im happy that gay people are being granted actual civil rights across the country.

Im happy that the government isnt uniformly helmed by stupid and/or evil people, of the John Yoo, David Addington, Tom Delay, George Bush mold.

I am unhappy that the evil legacy of the presidency you supported and the policies you cheered are still in place.

I think Obama tried to close Guatanamo.  He got us out of Iraq.  We are disengaging from Afghanistan.

He kept us out of the war with Iran that every neocon in America was pushing, and he has managed to govern in such a way that the Republicans who oppose him are not being called cowards, traitors or a menace to the united states every ten minutes.

I would like to see an immediate end to the drones until there is vigorous public debate on how to handle that.

I think the PATRIOT ACT should be completely repealed and open for review to the american people.  I do not think that law should be formulated in secret with rationales of shaky legitimacy that are also classified and secret from the majority of the legislators that are being expected to vote on it---regardless of the party affiliation.

Our form of government was never meant to revolve around the trust that 535 politicians have in the undebatable opinion of 7 members of secret committees that arent allowed to discuss what they know.  In fact that is an abomination in my opinion.

These are all things that I have repeatedly said, and I wil continue to stand by.

It is disappointing to me that Obama has chosen to continue the drones and the surveillance, but I do have to remark on the stark difference between how the Bush Admin handled these issues and how the Obama Admin has.  here we are having the conversation.  Under Bush, half of the posters would be calling us traitors for questioning it.

MMM.   Seems to me that we have suffered a much greater loss of our liberties under the Obama administration.  Although I agree more than I like with the earlier poster who called me an idiot and to wake up to the fact that both parties are taking away our liberties.   I think President Obama has shown himself to be quite the old school politician, including the "anything it takes" mantra to keep/increase power.  Not surprisingly I see W. in a kinder light than you.  Faced with an emergency security situation, his administration took measures that they thought were needed at the time.    I didn't disagree with them.  As our security situation changes then those measures should be reassessed.  What the Obama administration has done is ignore that same security threat (to the detriment of our Benghazi diplomats), yet use and expand the security apparatus developed to counter that outside threat for political purposes.  I think the PATRIOT ACT  has been abused and expanded in ways that it should not, and I agree it is time for repeal.  The Obama administration has even gone far beyond that in using the power of government to bully, coerce, and spy on US citizens.   I would also repeal the onerous "affordable health care act" that is already reducing our health care system to a mediocre shell of what it once was.  The war in Iraq has not yet had its final act and we have yet to see all of the results from that early and complete withdrawal.  Afghanistan is also unfinished.  Hopefully, our children won't be in Asia finishing what we didn't.  We'll see.  I won't call the President Obama and his people "stupid" or "evil", as I find that kind of language to be....somewhat dramatic.  But suffice it to say, I am convinced that we need new leadership in this country.

[NotNow]

How about that Obama administration?   Working out like you dreamed? 

To be honest, The Obama Administration has performed better than I originally assumed that they would be able to.  And the opposition has been much much worse than I actually dreamed possible.  Even after the humiliating spectacle of the Clinton Blow Job Impeachment that made me realize that the Republicans were going down a strange road indeed.

I am proud of the country for choosing an unknown third way over the diseased power system that the Delay/Frist/Gingrich/Bush years produced. 

Im happy that we have made moves towards a rational health care policy, im happy that the racist anti immigrant mayhem has been confronted and pushed back.  Im happy that gay people are being granted actual civil rights across the country.

Im happy that the government isnt uniformly helmed by stupid and/or evil people, of the John Yoo, David Addington, Tom Delay, George Bush mold.

I am unhappy that the evil legacy of the presidency you supported and the policies you cheered are still in place.

I think Obama tried to close Guatanamo.  He got us out of Iraq.  We are disengaging from Afghanistan.

He kept us out of the war with Iran that every neocon in America was pushing, and he has managed to govern in such a way that the Republicans who oppose him are not being called cowards, traitors or a menace to the united states every ten minutes.

I would like to see an immediate end to the drones until there is vigorous public debate on how to handle that.

I think the PATRIOT ACT should be completely repealed and open for review to the american people.  I do not think that law should be formulated in secret with rationales of shaky legitimacy that are also classified and secret from the majority of the legislators that are being expected to vote on it---regardless of the party affiliation.

Our form of government was never meant to revolve around the trust that 535 politicians have in the undebatable opinion of 7 members of secret committees that arent allowed to discuss what they know.  In fact that is an abomination in my opinion.

These are all things that I have repeatedly said, and I wil continue to stand by.

It is disappointing to me that Obama has chosen to continue the drones and the surveillance, but I do have to remark on the stark difference between how the Bush Admin handled these issues and how the Obama Admin has.  here we are having the conversation.  Under Bush, half of the posters would be calling us traitors for questioning it.

MMM.   Seems to me that we have suffered a much greater loss of our liberties under the Obama administration.  Although I agree more than I like with the earlier poster who called me an idiot and to wake up to the fact that both parties are taking away our liberties.   I think President Obama has shown himself to be quite the old school politician, including the "anything it takes" mantra to keep/increase power.  Not surprisingly I see W. in a kinder light than you.  Faced with an emergency security situation, his administration took measures that they thought were needed at the time.    I didn't disagree with them.  As our security situation changes then those measures should be reassessed.  What the Obama administration has done is ignore that same security threat (to the detriment of our Benghazi diplomats), yet use and expand the security apparatus developed to counter that outside threat for political purposes.  I think the PATRIOT ACT  has been abused and expanded in ways that it should not, and I agree it is time for repeal.  The Obama administration has even gone far beyond that in using the power of government to bully, coerce, and spy on US citizens.   I would also repeal the onerous "affordable health care act" that is already reducing our health care system to a mediocre shell of what it once was.  The war in Iraq has not yet had its final act and we have yet to see all of the results from that early and complete withdrawal.  Afghanistan is also unfinished.  Hopefully, our children won't be in Asia finishing what we didn't.  We'll see.  I won't call the President Obama and his people "stupid" or "evil", as I find that kind of language to be....somewhat dramatic.  But suffice it to say, I am convinced that we need new leadership in this country.

It is already America's longest war.  And where do you think our liberties have been reduced under the Obama Administration?  Many of the most onerous and controversial parts of the PATRIOT ACT (that you personally cheered for at the time, despite the fact that exactly these outcomes were predicted before its passage) were repealed under Obama.

I don't begrudge you your feelings and intuitions about Obama, I know I certainly had a bunch of them about Bush.  But let me ask you to explain what you base them on.  And I promise that I wont return your treatment of the rest of us when the roles were reversed by 'weeping' for the country, calling you a traitor, or questioning your manhood or integrity based on your opinion.

The Obama administration is currently working to abridge the 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendments of the Constitution.  They are doing this by aggressively pursuing news outlets (the FOX and AP affairs) and are SELECTIVELY prosecuting "leaks" at a higher rate than any previous administration.  They are pursuing gun "control" laws that have no basis in science and clearly violate the meaning of the 2nd amendment.  The President intends to sign the UN arms control agreement in direct opposition to the US Senate, and in spite of provisions in the treaty which clearly violate the 2nd amendment (documentation of gun ownership and control of ammunition stores).  We have previously discussed the 4th amendment violations of this administration.

I am always concerned for my country, and I will "weep" for it when the founding tenants are assaulted.  Traitor?  I don't remember calling you a traitor, but your comments on US military units...calling them cowardly, false accusations of war crimes and murder, sensational reporting of falsehoods as well as your usual comments on operations, all without any military experience whatsoever...leaves me thinking that your agenda is not about the best interests of the US.

I am not concerned about your "manhood" either.  But the quote from Theodore Roosevelt applies:

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.

The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

[ben says]

SO basically this conversation has devolved into a NotNow and Dare airing out their dirty laundry?

[NotNow]

Yep.

[NotNow]

by the way, obamacare is already reducing costs around the country as well as making health care affordable to millions more people.  Im not sure where you are getting your information, although I have my suspicions, but the nations most populous state saw their private bids recently and the general cost was slashed across the board to the consumers. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/06/california-is-the-white-houses-proof-that-obamacare-is-working/

With the focus in recent months on the law’s shaky rollout and continuing political battles, the president wants to draw attention to a state that has embraced the law and yielded some good news: Officials in the Democrat-led state recently released figures that show insurers expect to charge lower-than-expected premiums for individual policies sold under the law.
On the eve of his comments, however, a different story emerged from Ohio. Officials in the Republican-led administration Thursday released details about rates proposed by insurers there, estimating that they represented an 88 percent increase in the cost of coverage that would likely lead to a substantial increase in premiums.

“We have warned of these increases,” Ohio Lt. Gov. Mary Taylor (R) said in a statement. “The Department’s initial analysis of the proposed rates show consumers will have fewer choices and pay much higher premiums for their health insurance starting in 2014.”

The competing narratives illustrate the deep political divide that colors virtually every aspect of the health law three years after its passage and the difficult task Obama faces as he seeks to promote it a few months before its key provisions kick in.
Obama’s comments in San Jose, to be delivered while the president is on a fundraising swing, come as the administration is ramping up efforts to promote the law, which faces a major test this fall. The health insurance “exchanges” are supposed to open for business Oct. 1. These exchanges are designed to be online marketplaces where people can find and compare plans and get government subsidies for their purchases.

Seventeen states, including California, are setting up their own exchanges, as was intended by the law. But 27 states, most of them Republican-led, have left the task to the federal government, saddling the administration with an enormous and unexpected job. The rest of the states will form partnerships with the federal government to create the exchanges.
Further complicating the administration’s efforts are the number of states that have rejected the law’s expansion of Medicaid, the state-federal health program for the poor and disabled. The law called for a substantial broadening of Medicaid â€" which would put the administration more than halfway toward its goal of extending coverage to 30 million Americans over the next 10 years. But more than a dozen states, all Republican-led, are refusing to expand Medicaid.

Ohio is among the states taking a different tack than California. It has declined to set up its own exchange, letting the federal government set one up instead, and Republicans there remain divided over whether to expand Medicaid. It is the first Republican administration to release the rates being requested by insurers on its exchange.

California, by contrast, has long been a leader in implementing the law. It was the first state to create a health exchange under the law and is among the 23 states committed to expanding Medicaid.

“I don’t think the Affordable Care Act can succeed unless it succeeds in California,” Drew Altman, president of the nonpartisan Kaiser Family Foundation, said. “It’s not often we’re saying as goes California, so goes the nation. But it’s true this time.”

Of the 2.7 million young and healthy people the White House wants to sign up for insurance next year, one-third live in Texas, Florida and California. Altogether, California has 7 million uninsured people, the highest number in the country.
Covered California, the state agency implementing the law, last month announced that 13 plans would be available on its exchange and that the average monthly premium would be about $321. That is significantly lower than predicted by the Congressional Budget Office when the law was passed in 2010, and for most people, the cost will be at least partly offset by subsidies.

The state has not released an estimate of how the proposed rates compare with current rates. The law’s supporters say even if the new plans are more expensive, it is because they offer better benefits than the old plans.

But some insurance experts have warned that healthy males in their 20s are likely to face higher costs. And people with existing, bare-bones private plans could see their rates jump. In Ohio, for example, one plan now costs as little as about $30 a month, according to Ohio officials.

In California, officials say they aggressively negotiated with insurers to keep the rates low. They also said that competition among the insurers is holding rates down.

If healthy people choose to skip coverage and instead pay the mandated tax penalty, it could hurt the government’s efforts to bring enough healthy people into the insurance pool. Those healthy people are needed to offset the cost of sick people; insurers are expecting an influx of them.

While California has touted the rates proposed by insurers, some say the news is not all good. Some large national insurance companies, including Aetna and UnitedHealth, are not offering plans on the state exchange. And many of the plans on the exchange offer a narrow choice of doctors and hospitals.

Some experts say the political atmosphere is casting a shadow over each state’s reaction to the insurance rates.
“Ohio is too upset, and California is too happy,” said Micah Weinberg, senior policy adviser to the Bay Area Council, a business group that supports the health law.

“I suppose the question is, are we finally getting a release without spin, or are we getting Republican spin?” said Robert Laszewski, a health-care consultant and former insurance executive. “Like California, we are getting the data they want us to see.”

CORRECTION: A prior version of this article said that Ohio officials on Thursday released rates proposed by insurers for plans to be sold on the Ohio exchange. The state released insurers’ estimates of their increased costs of providing coverage, and state officials said premium rates likely would track closely.

You just have to google to find the criticisms of the plan, including the man who wrote it.  Surely you have friends who have already been affected.  Businesses are already limiting hours and insurance costs are going through the roof.  Many employers have already told their employees that their insurance will go away when this law is fully implemented.

I will be curious to see California insure that 7 million currently uninsured at $315 a month.  That is less than I pay now with my employer.