Jville's Brooklyn Renaissance: Planning for the Future

[thelakelander]

This North Florida TPO Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP) map highlights transit projects anticipated to be built between now and 2035.  If a project isn't on this list, it most likely will not be able to compete to secure federal funding assistance.  Currently, there are no Skyway extensions on this list.



http://www.northfloridatpo.com/images/uploads/general/LRTP_summbrochure.pdf

[simms3]

Nice map, I personally without having any expertise beyond my own experience relying on public transit, think that the long range plan for transit in Jax is the biggest joke I have ever fucking seen.

1) Commuter rail to that extent is laughable, and a waste.  Look at the commuter rail we tout on this site, anything less in ridership than Caltrans is a fucking laughable waste, no matter how cheap per mile.  The Star in Nashville has 1,000 riders a day...that's worse than the Skyway.  Tri-Rail in SoFla is the biggest fucking joke, and I have actually ridden it and relied on it and I'm still saying so (I regret NOT paying $100 for a cab, LoL).

2) BRT galore?  More like BRT light, let's be honest.  Nobody's going to shelack LRT money for a fancy real BRT system in Jacksonville when the local transit agency doesn't even know how to operate REGULAR busses, ROFLMFAO.  We can ask for money from the feds, touting studies, etc...they're going to see our current bus system with no ridership and poles in the ground for stops and laugh their fucking asses off.

Sorry, but as we have FINALLY admitted here on this site recently, there is NO traffic in Jax.  Fixed transit will be an economic developer, not a traffic reliever.  None of what's on that map matter, none will generate economic development, and not to worry because none will actually even come to fruition.

Can we please learn how to do busses?  The South in general (can we talk about MARTA busses too?  They fucking suck and there are people that DO rely on them in largish scale).  THEN let's talk fixed transit from a traffic relief standpoint.

[simms3]

^^^Right, for daily commuting, though?  Also, at some point it will become a point of contention that the system is free.  Every other transit system in America is raising rates now on an annual basis (still seeing ridership increase), and even if fare collections account for 30-60% of operations of a system (which is really good), in the most liberal of areas you still have anti-transit folks.

Start expanding the Skyway and keeping it free, and it will become a political 800 lb gorilla in the room.  What would ridership be with fare?  That's the smell test...and is ridership commuter based or event based?  That's the "usefulness" smell test.

[PeeJayEss]

Seems like it has been an aggravating morning...

Anywho, I believe the reason the road projects are solid lines and the mass transit projects are dotted lines is because, as simms said, the dotted ones aren't going to happen.

Where is the terminus of the westbound commuter rail? I'm too lazy to click the link and look.

edit: I lied, I'm super industrious. The west route ends in Maccleny. It and the southwest route are only studies within the timeframe of this plan. But if I had $100mil sitting in a shoe under my bed, I would totally donate it for those streetcar lines...

[thelakelander]

^Just trying to predict the future a bit here.  We spend however much on this platform, 50 people from nearby new rental communities use it occasionally for events, maybe commuting, etc, and we're going to hear about the "waste" forever more.

At this point we know this:

- 600 apartment units
- 70,000 square feet of retail
- Urban park with 260 days of programming
- A new YMCA building on the way
- Two additional pads for additional vertical mixed-use infill development (ex. YMCA, 220 Riverside)
-7,700 employees currently working on Riverside Avenue

You're a real estate guy. All of downtown (includes Brooklyn, Northbank and Southbank) has a residential population of 3,200. The employment population is split between 16,000 in the Northbank, 11,400 in the Southbank and 7,700 on Riverside Avenue. Fuqua is proposing 53,000 square feet of retail next door to the Skyway's operations center to be open by the end of 2014.  220 Riverside has another 18,000 square feet of retail they are bringing to the mix, along with Unity Plaza.  What's the chances of something like a grocery or pharmacy opening anywhere else in downtown, once Fuqua brings in his 20,000 square foot grocery anchor and 15,000 square foot CVS? Also, don't forget about the proposed Publix in San Marco or the existing Winn-Dixie on Union Street.

To be honest, most of the trips generated by a Skyway stop in Brooklyn would be from those working, living and staying (hotels) in the Northbank/Southbank that desire access to the 70,000 square feet of commercial/retail/dining that will pop up adjacent to the Skyway's operations center.  Because of the lack of these type of commercial venues in the rest of downtown and the fact that they are literally across the street from the Skyway's existing operations center, this sets up to possibly be one of the Skyway's most well used daily stops.

How many of the new residents do we think will use the Skyway on the reg?  The site of the proposed platform is already a few shadeless, semi-hostile blocks from the only development actually UC...and that's like a Guiness Record walk for anyone in Jax, even an urbanite.  Not trying to be a negative nancy, but if I lived in one of these new communities, I, too, would probably use my car as much as possible...and I hate even having a car, don't have one now!  Until you can ride the Skyway actually to somewhere useful outside of events going on downtown, there's not much reason to use it...and the headways are long, it's hot outside while you wait, it's slow (not in reality, just seems that way from a rider's perspective bc it doesn't zoom along as fast as a car in between lights), etc.

Skyway's headways are between 3 to 7 minutes.  It's been that way for years now.  Also, the operations center is at Leila and Riverside Avenue.  Fuqua's 53,000 square feet of retail is bounded by Leila, Riverside, Jackson and Magnolia.  The front door of his proposed CVS (btw, how did this design get worse from last month's review..I'm looking at the latest version now) is exactly a one block walk.  That's two blocks shorter than the walk between the Landing's front door and the Skyway's Central Station or the same distance from the library's door to Hemming Plaza. If you're not interested in walking that distance, you're probably the type that would not regularly consider using mass transit anywhere, if easily avoidable.

IF we build it and they don't come...by by Skyway (potentially LRT/Streetcar) forever.  It's politics.  People don't care that money was wasted on a pocket park or a roundabout.  Most people don't even know they exist and don't have this evil thought in their head towards parks and roundabouts like they do against transit.

I'd agree if we were talking about some major expense.  However, we're talking about a no-fills stop at an existing facility.  Different animal altogether.

[thelakelander]

Simms its been a while since youve been in town, but now that they are actually operating the skyway (and made it a free connection) the system is being heavily, heavily used.

An extension along Riverside---and by the way the video discusses also the improvements and future expansions that are taking place at the Cummer (which is still south of Forest, last time I checked )

Cummer has been in Riverside since its founding. Then perhaps the title should be changed from Brooklyn to something else.

[thelakelander]

^^^Right, for daily commuting, though?  Also, at some point it will become a point of contention that the system is free.  Every other transit system in America is raising rates now on an annual basis (still seeing ridership increase), and even if fare collections account for 30-60% of operations of a system (which is really good), in the most liberal of areas you still have anti-transit folks.

Start expanding the Skyway and keeping it free, and it will become a political 800 lb gorilla in the room.  What would ridership be with fare?  That's the smell test...and is ridership commuter based or event based?  That's the "usefulness" smell test.

Miami's Metromover, the Skyway's sibling, is free.  Also, there are no plans at this point to extend the Skyway.  Furthermore, from what I hear, the Skyway won't be free long term.

[simms3]

^^^BART has limited free transfer to Muni (time-limited for visitors)...it's a totally separate system that is only heavy rail.  I can pay $10 more per month to use BART within city limits (distance based fare) in addition to what I pay per month to use unlimited Muni, which does provide free transfers because it's bus, trolleybus, rail and streetcar.

Anyway, Lake - I honestly don't think the Brooklyn developments will contribute a substantive ridership base.  I have to take myself here as a test dummy - I am as urbanite as possible for a southern background, so I go out of my way to be carless and "green" and urban when so possible, but from experience I know that in Brooklyn I would still have a car and use it and cringe at walking over to the Skyway station.  It's just not transit friendly or even necessary...if I move to Jax like so many do, I will be coming off of living in much larger, much more congested, much more expensive, much more carless cities...so owning, using and parking a car in Jax will be easier to me than using the shit transit system (even if Skyway is free).  Plus it's fucking hot as shitttt down there, LoL.  Nothing worse than waiting in a hot subway tunnel or for anything outdoors in FL, while wearing your suit or "going out" clothes.

Also, the stats you tout (all of the proposed development plus the one development UC) is not that much, let's be honest.  It's incrementally a lot for Jax, clearly.  But Charlotte is doing nearly 10x as much NOW along LYNX in South End, in addition to what's already been built.  More room there and more potential.  I think Brooklyn is limited...There will be limited opportunity to do much more than what's there and what's proposed.  I think there is more potential to create a transit line in another direction (north and west?) that could see more ridership from people like me who want to be carless if possible.

[thelakelander]

you do know that you have to drive through brooklyn to get to the cummer unless you are coming from riverside, right?  Brooklyn is a neighborhood in between neighborhoods.

You have to drive through Baymeadows to get to Avenues.  You have to drive through North Riverside to Lackawanna.  Every neighborhood in the city is between something. 

With each increase in mileage, your solution to transportation issues change because the context and its needs change.  If you're talking specifically about Brooklyn projects (which is where things started) then the transportation side of the discussion needs to accurately align with it.  If you're expanding out, the context changes, the issues change, so the solutions discussed will need to adapt as well.

[thelakelander]

Seems like it has been an aggravating morning...

Anywho, I believe the reason the road projects are solid lines and the mass transit projects are dotted lines is because, as simms said, the dotted ones aren't going to happen.

Where is the terminus of the westbound commuter rail? I'm too lazy to click the link and look.

edit: I lied, I'm super industrious. The west route ends in Maccleny. It and the southwest route are only studies within the timeframe of this plan. But if I had $100mil sitting in a shoe under my bed, I would totally donate it for those streetcar lines...

If your prediction of solid vs dashed lines comes true, we'll have a network of streetcar lines connecting downtown with surrounding urban neighborhoods!

[simms3]

^^^Right, for daily commuting, though?  Also, at some point it will become a point of contention that the system is free.  Every other transit system in America is raising rates now on an annual basis (still seeing ridership increase), and even if fare collections account for 30-60% of operations of a system (which is really good), in the most liberal of areas you still have anti-transit folks.

Start expanding the Skyway and keeping it free, and it will become a political 800 lb gorilla in the room.  What would ridership be with fare?  That's the smell test...and is ridership commuter based or event based?  That's the "usefulness" smell test.

Miami's Metromover, the Skyway's sibling, is free.  Also, there are no plans at this point to extend the Skyway.  Furthermore, from what I hear, the Skyway won't be free long term.

No offense to Miami, but the more I visit the place in my current perspective (no longer visit for Ultra, Spring Break, "friends", etc), the more I think of that place as just not relevant to anything that goes on normally in America.  It could be its own country, LoL.  I say...whatever Miami does, do the opposite!!  hehe

[PeeJayEss]

Seems like it has been an aggravating morning...

Anywho, I believe the reason the road projects are solid lines and the mass transit projects are dotted lines is because, as simms said, the dotted ones aren't going to happen.

Where is the terminus of the westbound commuter rail? I'm too lazy to click the link and look.

edit: I lied, I'm super industrious. The west route ends in Maccleny. It and the southwest route are only studies within the timeframe of this plan. But if I had $100mil sitting in a shoe under my bed, I would totally donate it for those streetcar lines...

If your prediction of solid vs dashed lines comes true, we'll have a network of streetcar lines connecting downtown with surrounding urban neighborhoods!

Hah! I noticed that after I looked on the site. Streetcar BETTER get done.

[thelakelander]

Simms3, regardless of how one may feel about the city of Miami, the Metromover still moves an average of 30,000/day in downtown Miami.  The Skyway currently moves between 5,000 to 4,500/day.  That's up from 1,700/day when JTA was charging people $0.50/ride.

Anyway, Lake - I honestly don't think the Brooklyn developments will contribute a substantive ridership base.  I have to take myself here as a test dummy - I am as urbanite as possible for a southern background, so I go out of my way to be carless and "green" and urban when so possible, but from experience I know that in Brooklyn I would still have a car and use it and cringe at walking over to the Skyway station.  It's just not transit friendly or even necessary...if I move to Jax like so many do, I will be coming off of living in much larger, much more congested, much more expensive, much more carless cities...so owning, using and parking a car in Jax will be easier to me than using the shit transit system (even if Skyway is free).  Plus it's fucking hot as shitttt down there, LoL.  Nothing worse than waiting in a hot subway tunnel or for anything outdoors in FL, while wearing your suit or "going out" clothes.

Also, the stats you tout (all of the proposed development plus the one development UC) is not that much, let's be honest.  It's incrementally a lot for Jax, clearly.  But Charlotte is doing nearly 10x as much NOW along LYNX in South End, in addition to what's already been built.  More room there and more potential.  I think Brooklyn is limited...There will be limited opportunity to do much more than what's there and what's proposed.  I think there is more potential to create a transit line in another direction (north and west?) that could see more ridership from people like me who want to be carless if possible.

No offense, but I wouldn't consider you the average transit choice rider in any urban setting. Especially in the south.  With that said, this has quickly gone overlooked but this is the primary reason why I believe a "no-frills" Skyway station at the Brooklyn operations center makes sense:

In short, the Brooklyn Skyway access issue isn't about relieving automobile traffic congestion or gridlock. This development/transit issue is about the need to create and promote the concept of a walkable, pedestrian scale downtown where all its sub-districts positively feed off each other's success. 

[simms3]

I am the epitome of transit choice rider, actually.  Why wouldn't I be?  Actually, you're right...you don't even have to make transit super duper convenient for me in the south and I'll still live as close to it as possible and use it when I can, which is a whole next step.  Your average choice rider needs it to be MORE convenient than their car, which is VERY difficult to do in a smaller southern city such as Jax.  I'm not in transit, per se, but having lived in a southern city that offers transit and seen ridership habits firsthand for years, I know if you can't convince me to be a rider, you're going to have a very difficult time convincing other "non-captive" riders.

In Jax...keep in mind you have more young people who have never really left the city or lived without their car in an urban setting before.  I've been hauling groceries by foot for years now, so I know the plusses AND minuses of being without car and I have accepted them.  I think the idea of urban carless experience is still "romantic" to many in Jax, but they haven't the actual experience to know that there are drawbacks to relying on transit and living in an urban setting.  The convenience of a car with AC and stereo is a very captivating thing to abandon for a totally different experience.

There are tons of retirees and middle-aged folks/families who have "fled" the crowded urban settings up north so that they can actually have a car and suburban house + yard, been there done that type of thing, and they reside in Jax...it's the inexperienced younger generation that you have to convince to go urban (granted - urban in Jax is really not that urban, it's still quiet, car parking is free and abundant, bla bla bla).

[thelakelander]

I am the epitome of transit choice rider, actually.  Why wouldn't I be?  Actually, you're right...you don't even have to make transit super duper convenient for me in the south and I'll still live as close to it as possible and use it when I can, which is a whole next step.  Your average choice rider needs it to be MORE convenient than their car, which is VERY difficult to do in a smaller southern city such as Jax.  I'm not in transit, per se, but having lived in a southern city that offers transit and seen ridership habits firsthand for years, I know if you can't convince me to be a rider, you're going to have a very difficult time convincing other "non-captive" riders.

On a regional or city wide level, this is more of a concern. However, speaking from experience, for many working in downtown Jacksonville (I worked within two blocks of the Skyway in the North & Southbank for three years), once you're in downtown, it's much easier to utilize the Skyway then run to your garage, drive/park/do whatever you have to do, then drive back and park in your garage.  I'm an independent planning consultant now but I still routinely either use the Skyway or park north of State and walk, depending on my desired downtown destination and length of stay.

In Jax...keep in mind you have more young people who have never really left the city or lived without their car in an urban setting before.  I've been hauling groceries by foot for years now, so I know the plusses AND minuses of being without car and I have accepted them.  I think the idea of urban carless experience is still "romantic" to many in Jax, but they haven't the actual experience to know that there are drawbacks to relying on transit and living in an urban setting.  The convenience of a car with AC and stereo is a very captivating thing to abandon for a totally different experience.

In a downtown environment, your largest sell is the concept of walkability.  If you're downtown isn't walkable, seriously, what's the point in moving there over anywhere else in town?  If Jax is going to consider Brooklyn as a part of downtown, it's only logical that transit connectivity (which extends the walkable footprint) between Brooklyn and the rest of downtown should be improved and be highly reliable.

There are tons of retirees and middle-aged folks/families who have "fled" the crowded urban settings up north so that they can actually have a car and suburban house + yard, been there done that type of thing, and they reside in Jax...it's the inexperienced younger generation that you have to convince to go urban (granted - urban in Jax is really not that urban, it's still quiet, car parking is free and abundant, bla bla bla).

None of this should mean you don't enhance walkability and connectivity within your downtown......if the point is to have a vibrant pedestrian friendly downtown.  If a vibrant pedestrian friendly environment is not the goal of the end game, what's the point of investing in downtown over other random neighborhoods all across town?