Good San Marco news

[Captain Zissou]

Actually the R/A zoning overlay was the result of three years of neighborhood meetings, planning sessions, professional input from planners all coordinated by RAP and the Planning Dept.  Lots and lots of different input from a wide variety of people (stakeholders in modern speak) both residents and businesses and merchant's associations.

Lots of discussion, argument and compromise.  It's probably a really good model of how zoning should be developed.

The zoning overlay basically just says what type of building currently sits on that parcel. Unless I'm looking at the wrong thing, I fail to see why the overlay is such a lauded thing for the neighborhood. In my opinion, it limits the neighborhood more than it helps it.

[acme54321]

Good news for SM. went up there with family this week for dinner and a movie. My only point remains that with all of the growth in RA i do struggle to find a lesson to be learned from SM recent revival however.
particularly Hurricanes.

What about the Hurricane's?  It's a chain?

[thelakelander]

Good news for SM. went up there with family this week for dinner and a movie. My only point remains that with all of the growth in RA i do struggle to find a lesson to be learned from SM recent revival however.
particularly Hurricanes.

I think one thing any neighborhood could take advantage of is the process used in SM to fund, construct, and maintain the expansion of Balis Park.  All of that has essentially taken less time than the fence approval process that Tacachale's friend had to go through.

[Captain Zissou]

Yeah, but that fence could make or break the neighborhood!!! Do you know how many people are more likely to throw their beer bottles or park on somebody's lawn because of a fence!? Thousands.

[Tacachale]

Good news for SM. went up there with family this week for dinner and a movie. My only point remains that with all of the growth in RA i do struggle to find a lesson to be learned from SM recent revival however.
particularly Hurricanes.

I think one thing any neighborhood could take advantage of is the process used in SM to fund, construct, and maintain the expansion of Balis Park.  All of that has essentially taken less time than the fence approval process that Tacachale's friend had to go through.

Yes, that's a fabulous comparison.

[simms3]

I don't get how Atlanta and Nashville can have these similar historic districts and see meaningful business development in them, as well as new construction, and yet Jacksonville's languishes in contrast, a constant bitter fight between people.  What's the difference?  I wish people would also realize that we are talking about 70-90 year old homes in a streetcar suburb, which is only historic for the Sunbelt but newer than many suburbs in other parts of the country.

There will always be people looking for an old home in an established neighborhood, but there are also folks looking for new or modern housing in that same established neighborhood, and RAP cuts them out, perpetually keeping RA values depressed from their potential and hurting the city's tax base and the local residents as a result.  Not to mention their business killing attitude also has the same effect of holding the neighborhood back and likely keeping values super depressed from their potential.

Stodgy old-timers and their occasionally equally stodgy children are simply a super vocal minority who have too much time to stress themselves out with "change" and sit on boards and instill regime-like control over what they still deem as "their" neighborhood.  Chill out dudes - you're 60+, semi-retired at least, you still have the Yacht Club and Timucuana, you still have your old house that smells like mothballs, what more do you want/need?  Just enjoy those things and let some younger folks open businesses they wish to frequent rather than spend the last 20 years of breath in your life fighting folks younger and likely more energetic than yourself.  Sorry, your time is up.

Also - every city has these NIMBY groups.  SF probably has the most extreme NIMBYs in the country and in fact any retailer with more than 11 locations internationally is now forboden from opening a new location in SF county limits).  Then again, this is a city that can be extremely anti-growth in this day and age because the city will always be very cool and attractive to new generations and the economy serves as the worldwide base of entire new-age industries.

It's just that Jax doesn't really have what SF has and frankly could use any economic development anywhere it can get, especially the core.  If Atlanta isn't a real NIMBY city, despite having larger and older areas and more kooky preservationists, then Jax shouldn't be as extreme as it is.  I think it's evident that due to low COL and warm climate, people will be moving to NE FL regardless.  Do we want them all choosing SJC and the SS, or would we want to direct some of that traffic to the core?  Schools will never make the core attractive, but vibrancy with businesses and the ability to build things will.  Can't replicate RA in SJC, but RA's uniqueness is killed when groups like RAP prevent all growth and change.

[thelakelander]

I don't get how Atlanta and Nashville can have these similar historic districts and see meaningful business development in them, as well as new construction, and yet Jacksonville's languishes in contrast, a constant bitter fight between people.  What's the difference?

Not being from Jacksonville, I think some of the stuff you mention is more market rated than anything that RAP or the zoning overlay controls. Take this thread for instance.  It's gone from an original post about a couple of business expansions in San Marco Square to a weird Riverside vs San Marco debate.  In reality, despite the differences each neighborhood takes with zoning and development issues, neither is really bursting at the seems with the infill density that many similar neighborhoods across the country are experiencing.  That's not an indictment on them, but this seems to be the case of Jacksonville in general.

From my experiences, it seems that Jax remains a few years behind many of its peers in embracing many urban development trends. Several other places have dealt with many of the issues we're dealing with now, those situations have been resolved one way or the other than time has moved on.  I do believe we'll eventually get there (ex. we're now seeing development in Brooklyn that consumed the rest of the country's urban centers a decade ago).  I also believe that once the market is right, the zoning overlays allow for new infill in and around Riverside.  My major concern from a zoning perspective is the autocentric regulations being applied everywhere outside of Riverside, downtown, and Springfield.

Nevertheless, I see Riverside and San Marco as two "haves".  Personally, I'd like to see the wealth and revitalization spread around a little to neighborhoods like Springfield, Murray Hill, Durkeeville, LaVilla and the Eastside.

[ben says]

I don't get how Atlanta and Nashville can have these similar historic districts and see meaningful business development in them, as well as new construction, and yet Jacksonville's languishes in contrast, a constant bitter fight between people.  What's the difference?

Not being from Jacksonville, I think some of the stuff you mention is more market rated than anything that RAP or the zoning overlay controls. Take this thread for instance.  It's gone from an original post about a couple of business expansions in San Marco Square to a weird Riverside vs San Marco debate.  In reality, despite the differences each neighborhood takes with zoning and development issues, neither is really bursting at the seems with the infill density that many similar neighborhoods across the country are experiencing.  That's not an indictment on them, but this seems to be the case of Jacksonville in general.

From my experiences, it seems that Jax remains a few years behind many of its peers in embracing many urban development trends. Several other places have dealt with many of the issues we're dealing with now, those situations have been resolved one way or the other than time has moved on.  I do believe we'll eventually get there (ex. we're now seeing development in Brooklyn that consumed the rest of the country's urban centers a decade ago).  I also believe that once the market is right, the zoning overlays allow for new infill in and around Riverside.  My major concern from a zoning perspective is the autocentric regulations being applied everywhere outside of Riverside, downtown, and Springfield.

Nevertheless, I see Riverside and San Marco as two "haves".  Personally, I'd like to see the wealth and revitalization spread around a little to neighborhoods like Springfield, Murray Hill, Durkeeville, LaVilla and the Eastside.

Couldn't agree more

[jcjohnpaint]

Lake spot on!

[simms3]

Lake I agree, there is no truly hot neighborhood in Jax.  Do you think that Jax has the zoning setup to see such commercial development, and do you think the problem is more to do with local NIMBYism or more to do with economic situations that ward off the capital and developers who would swoop in to oversee such projects, large and small?

We are landlords in similar areas as Avondale or San Marco...the city of SF has become very expensive (<5.75% yield due to compressed cap rates and $100M+/acre land), so we are looking at street retail instead in the burbs.  On the west coast - Berkeley, Burlingame, Abbot Kinney in LA, LaJolla, Pasadena, Melrose, etc etc.  Like their larger city peers (Newbury in Boston, Union Square in SF, South Beach, Hyde Park in Chicago, etc) these were commercial portfolios assembled, built/redeveloped, and leased over 30-50 years by eccentric and creative guys who won the hearts of the locals.  In addition to local shops and restaurants, these streets now have credit retailers carefully selected - Apple, Williams Sonoma, Pottery Barn, Banana Republic, etc.  Now larger family trusts and institutional players such as my own firm are swooping in for the opportunity.

I don't know what all battles these guys fought over the years, either with locals or convincing national retailers to come in.  I do know that they all helped bankroll many of the local business owners initially, like seed money or a traditional equity partner.  The entitlement process in Berkeley alone is 18 months if you have a guy like local Denny Abrams negotiating for you.  24-48 months if you are an "outsider".  Locals will protest if they don't like you or your concept.  So this all goes on - BUT the locals aren't necessarily anti all development.  They just want it done right for their communities.  The economics are also there, and I'm not really sure they are in most of Jax, even in supposedly wealthy Avondale or San Marco, etc.

Maybe Avondale just hasn't met the guy yet who can win the hearts of RAP and locals.  Maybe nobody is willing to step up, not because of the hard fight it will require, but because the economics in general aren't really there to see a thriving commercial setup and the prospect is dim in the long run.

[thelakelander]

Lake I agree, there is no truly hot neighborhood in Jax.  Do you think that Jax has the zoning setup to see such commercial development, and do you think the problem is more to do with local NIMBYism or more to do with economic situations that ward off the capital and developers who would swoop in to oversee such projects, large and small?

I think the areas that have zoning overlays (ex. Riverside/Springfield/Downtown, etc.) have zoning regulations and policies that are more suitable for urban infill than the rest of Jax, which is just as autocentric oriented as it can get.  IMO, it should be easier to get something like Black Sheep approved in the urban core than the incompatible stuff Family Dollar has been plopping in economically distressed neighborhoods across the city. With that said, I do believe San Marco's San Marco by Design study will make it easier to do these projects in San Marco if it ends up resulting in a zoning overlay that better facilities it.

I also don't think NIMBYism is a major deterrent.  Just about everyone has something negative to say when Walmart proposes a new location but it hasn't stop them from becoming the nation's largest retailer.  I'd say it's probably more economic related. 

Even now, I'd argue the infill that's popping up around SJTC/Tinseltown (Deerwood Lofts, Tapestry Park, Uptown, etc.) should be the type of infill product being built in and around downtown.  Yet, we got very little during last decade's nationwide urban infill boom and even now, all we have is 220 Riverside currently under construction.

What's the reason your company invests in secondary markets like Austin, Orlando, and Nashville but not Jax?  What do you think can be done to change this?

[Ernest Street]

The "Round Abouts" are quite annoying...when will JSO be parked nearby for "Trolling"
At the very least picking up people for Plowing across the stupid circle.
Is this to keep people on 95?
A "Spanking to the normal driver"? that dared to cut through San Marco for the last 25 years?

Did the local Business owners have a say in this stupid traffic re-direction?

.

[thelakelander]

Round-a-bouts are a form of traffic calming.....

[tufsu1]

Did the local Business owners have a say in this stupid traffic re-direction?

yes, they were involved...think of it this way, cars travelling north now pass by shops on both sides of the square.

I have observed the traffic flow during the afternoon peak a few times and everything seems to work just fine...cars pretty much move continuously (albeit slowly) except when allowing pedestrians to cross of someone is trying to parallel park on Balis

[johnnyliar]

San Marco resident here, the roundabout has been awesome for traffic flow in the area and has made it much easier to walk through the square since cars have a much more predictable route and drivers aren't preoccupied with switching lanes to pass cars/ find parking.